NSL

loMe

Alski Syndrome

Posts: 183
Location: United States of America
Joined: 29 June 2014

Can we please do something about the voting system in Gathers? Honestly, I would rather that we just got rid of all the servers lists and maps because it creates unnecessary problems/drama. We just had a gather fall apart because only 3 people voted for a map (caged). When we all showed up in the server no one except those 3 people that voted wanted to play. EVERYONE else in the gather agreed to play Veil. We voted to change the map in-game but then an admin changed the map back to caged. This happened one more time before we finally said "fuck it we'll play." People were yelling at each other and eventually one person just raged quit out of the gather so we played a 6v5.

It's pretty dumb when 75% of the people in the Gather want to play one map, but a different map "won" the vote. The voting system is slow and you have to vote for 3 things, and most of the time people only pick a captain just to turn off the loud ass music. Sometimes the polls will refresh just as your about to cast your vote and you end up clicking on something you didn't want. Your not allowed to revote unless you leave the gather, which risks you losing your spot. Instead of calling people retarded for forgetting to vote for the map/server you could be a little less stubborn and hear out what people are trying to say. Why do we even have maps like caged in the gathers map list - its not even in the NSL map rotations this season for a reason.

Reddit Pugs worked just fine without having to vote on a map or server. Like I mentioned in a different thread before though, we can have a vote for a NA vs EU server location, and then just let the captains pick the server - whichever is best for EVERYONE. The same can be done for picking the map; as soon as people start showing up on TS3, the captain can ask them what map they want to play and then agree on a map with the other captain.

EDIT by simple: Moved to Website Forum.

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Hadesia

Virtual Dejection 2

Posts: 8
Location: Paris, France
Joined: 17 January 2014

The more people get to talk, the more we get to dramas in this community. Let it be how it is, with anonymous democratic votes and things written down to refer to. You may be used to pugs where decisions are made verbally and in your mother tongue but in European Natural Selection League Gathers habits are not the same. The main difference is that the first starts when everyone is (already) on mumble whereas in gathers, people would wait, then join the server, then wait, then join ts (and then be shy on it - language barrier?). Adding a verbal vote equals adding a step into the process, slowing it and privileging the loud. Plus, it's a chance to play uncommon maps on a 6v6 format :3

But if we really want to solve the problem of people being lazy, the website could force them to vote for the map they want to play as it would be -for example- a condition to join the gather.

I agree on the fact that you should be able to rectify your vote without having to leave the party.

To resume, the actual system is fair, fast and easy but can still be improved as pointed out by this experience.

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simple

Posts: 131
Location: Germany
Joined: 16 November 2013

loMe says

It's pretty dumb when 75% of the people in the Gather want to play one map, but a different map "won" the vote.

So do you also complain about elections results, after you didn't vote?

loMe says

rant

If you have suggests for how to make things better, then present them in an orderly and readable fashion.

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loMe

Alski Syndrome

Posts: 183
Location: United States of America
Joined: 29 June 2014

Yes, let's compare voting in a presidential election to voting in a video game. Good.

1) Change the server vote to either an "NA server" or "EU server." Let captains decide on which specific server to go to that is best for everyone and based off the result of the NA/EU vote. Feel free to leave a list of potential servers on the gather page but it's counterproductive to have votes split between different server locations on the same continent.

Example why:
4 votes NSL Paris
3 votes NA East
2 votes Tactical Freedom NJ, USA
1 vote r/Dallas

EU wins with 4 votes, NA loses with 6 votes.

2) Change to only one vote for map (no one ever plays 2 maps). I noticed the old maps have been removed, thanks for that.

Or

Get rid of the map vote and let captains agree on a map with their teammates. I personally would rather do this.

3) Allow for re-voting for map/server without having to rejoin the Gather.

4) Another suggestion if you want to enforce the voting is to leave that blaring music on until the individual has voted for everything they're supposed to. I try to vote for everything but my fellow Americans don't always do it because they're in the middle of a pub round or something else - so they quickly vote for a captain and then go back to what they were doing.

There are things I think NSL Gathers do well and things I think Reddit Mumble Pugs do well. I just want the best of both, and the voting system has been causing problems lately.

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jope

Team Awesome

Posts: 59
Location: Norway
Joined: 7 April 2013

Hadesia says

European Natural Selection League Gathers

I thought we essentially changed to NSL last or two years ago as to include our friends in the Americas and Australia? :)

loMe says

1) Change the server vote to either an "NA server" or "EU server."

I agree with this part because there are times when some of the servers might not be 'regging' right and not everyone knows the current situation. Paris Hodor was better than the NSL Paris but then came a time when it needed a restart or so so instead of going there we went to the other paris. Same happens sometimes with East #2.

3) Allow for re-voting for map/server without having to rejoin the Gather.

I think everyone can agree with this

4) Another suggestion if you want to enforce the voting is to leave that blaring music on until the individual has voted for everything they're supposed to. I try to vote for everything but my fellow Americans don't always do it because they're in the middle of a pub round or something else - so they quickly vote for a captain and then go back to what they were doing.

While i agree with the blaring music, however, you should not reward the laziness of someone who just votes captains, forgets about the other stuff, and then huffs and puffs because they took this course of action. No gather should be held hostage due to this.

In general, It baffles me the sheer lack of being able to come to an agreement over this simple stuff. stubbornness and entitlement is silly since its a video game and a low populated one. Leave the ego at the door and just play to play. We found a common ground ,which is the game, now just find the common ground on understanding that you won't always get your way so stop being a bitch because you did not(not directed to you lome, this is to everyone). The voting is there for guidance, it is not law.
Think of this like the Euro/Aus matches, they are played on a NA west server. Ya it isn't ideal, but you are coming to terms with the situation and finding the best solution possible.
'A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied' - Larry David

The term I learned most studying in the EU was HARMONIZE, so lets get going with it and put your big boy pants on.

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Hadesia

Virtual Dejection 2

Posts: 8
Location: Paris, France
Joined: 17 January 2014

jope says

Hadesia says
European Natural Selection League Gathers

I thought we essentially changed to NSL last or two years ago as to include our friends in the Americas and Australia? :)

The title...
it was so easy :3

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loMe

Alski Syndrome

Posts: 183
Location: United States of America
Joined: 29 June 2014

I honestly never knew what the "E" stood for in "ENSL" and for that I feel a little dumb.

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Sephy

We're grumpy

Extra-Staff: FR servers
Posts: 39
Location: France
Joined: 23 May 2014

Hello there,

I'm well aware of the gathers' drama lately, I heard your args and complaints about the current system.
So we'll try this week a slightly new format.

1. Removed Kodiak, Fusion, Caged from the mapcycle, I only kept the ensl official one of this current season. If people are moved again about this change, maybe we will make them back if there is a lot of people who want to put them back in the list.

2. I removed every server from the list and added 2 "servers" instead.
EU one and NA one.
So here the slight upgrade, Admins/Captains (HA > gathers admins > admins > captains) can choose the server. It means if EU is voted, Adms can choose if we will play on London/Paris/SWE/whatever, if there is no admins, captains and only them will decide (after discussing the subject with their respective team) on which server the game will be played. (If EU is voted and if we have 5 NA players, try to not being a dick and don't choose a East EU server; same for NA)

3. We won't change anything regarding the current voting system. When you are registering in a gather, just vote the map and the server. And when the gather starts, you will vote the captains. If you forget to vote map or server after the gather starts and if you run out of time because of that, it's your fault. And you should not whine[@ban_hammer] about it.

4. I think I should highlight that the captains should be choose among the best players in order to make fair teams. If the teams are not fair, any admins can restart the gather by choosing another captain or just redo the picking phase.

5. Congrats to everyone for making the gather starts faster since our last reminder. And Enjoy the bans for the other who didn't understand the 10min rules.

TL;TR : Just read it. it's not so long.

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loMe

Alski Syndrome

Posts: 183
Location: United States of America
Joined: 29 June 2014

+1 ^^^^

Looking forward to see how it works out.

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ryssk

Ram Ranch

Posts: 319
Location: Sundsvall, Sweden
Joined: 3 November 2012

What this game needs, is atleast 2 admins.

1 from EU who takes the EU times,

And 1 from US & A to take the odd times, the smeagol times as i call it.. the ones that never sleeps,

And maybe 1 more casual admin who plays alot of gathers, just to see that everything is in order and can maintain somewhat of a balance between the games!

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BauerJankins

nazi hunter izO

Posts: 368
Location: Paderborn, Germany
Joined: 20 October 2013

I strongly disagree with the admins being allowed to vote the servers over others. Wtf is up with that decision? Why would you give admins more powers over the captains when it comes to gather-matters? This rule is just stupid and won't really help with the current problems people are having with some admins.

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http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png

loMe

Alski Syndrome

Posts: 183
Location: United States of America
Joined: 29 June 2014

^^I don't see what the disagreement is about??

My assumption is that the players vote on the general location of the server (NA or EU). If there is an admin on, he/she will pick the specific location of the server based off that vote (One that works best for everyone). If there isn't an admin, the responsibility falls on the captains to discuss with their team and the other captain which specific server will be played.

This, if anything, makes the admins be impartial and accountable - not more powerful.

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jope

Team Awesome

Posts: 59
Location: Norway
Joined: 7 April 2013

I do not think Sephy is saying the admin overrule all votes just to play on the server he/she wants. The admin is there to facilitate a solution any questions on server.

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Pelargir

We're grumpy

Posts: 452
Location: Lyon, France
Joined: 6 April 2013

ryssk says

What this game needs, is atleast 2 admins.

1 from EU who takes the EU times,

And 1 from US & A to take the odd times, the smeagol times as i call it.. the ones that never sleeps,

And maybe 1 more casual admin who plays alot of gathers, just to see that everything is in order and can maintain somewhat of a balance between the games!

I can't do that. It would thwart my plans to bring back the French NSL. First step: remove all the NA players somehow.

BauerJankins says

I strongly disagree with the admins being allowed to vote the servers over others. Wtf is up with that decision? Why would you give admins more powers over the captains when it comes to gather-matters? This rule is just stupid and won't really help with the current problems people are having with some admins.

Democracy!

loMe says

^^I don't see what the disagreement is about??

My assumption is that the players vote on the general location of the server (NA or EU). If there is an admin on, he/she will pick the specific location of the server based off that vote (One that works best for everyone). If there isn't an admin, the responsibility falls on the captains to discuss with their team and the other captain which specific server will be played.

Agreed.

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“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”

MV

Doctors

Posts: 77
Location: Maldives
Joined: 1 June 2014

Sephy says

1. Removed Kodiak, Fusion, Caged from the mapcycle, I only kept the ensl official one of this current season. If people are moved again about this change, maybe we will make them back if there is a lot of people who want to put them back in the list.

I think you forgot to remove Eclipse :)

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removed_5820

Posts: 20
Location: Europe
Joined: 6 October 2013

u forgot eclipse, mineral, nexus and descent

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simple

Posts: 131
Location: Germany
Joined: 16 November 2013

loMe says

Yes, let's compare voting in a presidential election to voting in a video game. Good.

Same principle: you get a vote and its up to you to take it. Complaining afterwards is just entitled.

loMe says

1) Change the server vote to either an "NA server" or "EU server."

I'm still in favor of normal server votes, because at least in the EU the preferences for a server are manifolded and people tend to dislike this or that server. Why discuss everything when a simple voting system is already in place?

loMe says

3) Allow for re-voting for map/server without having to rejoin the Gather.

I can agree with that - but don't get your hopes up, since I don't think its worth the effort.

A mute button is already on my todo list (ETA: when I feel like it).

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Narkoweed

Team France 2016

Posts: 76
Location: Kingston, Jamaica
Joined: 29 June 2013

When you add to gather, just click on the server and the map.... Not that difficult. 3 fucking clicks...

We never had problem with that until lazzy NA came on NSL gathers reccently (and this is a good thing they came, no misunderstood). I dont see why people who are lazzy should not play a map they haven't voted for cuz they were too lazzy to push the right click of their mouse...

For the maplist, that was something really needed ^^ as the "can change vote without leave and rejoin" is a good thing too which should be already implemented :(.

loMe says

Reddit Pugs worked just fine without having to vote on a map or server

Now that you NA guys joined the gather, the gather are slow to start. And this is a bad thing. I played some pugs (like 10?) and those were alwayssssssss fuckiiiiiing slooooooooooow to launch the game. When u already know which server, which TS and which map u gonna play. After team are pick you just need to join and start. Thats why when u say Pugs worked just fine, thats true, but for ppl who had time and arent impatient. Basically when a pug started you had time to go smoke, drink a cofee, go pee and even with that 11ppl aren't on the server yet.....

PEOPLE WHO TAKE 10MIN TO CONNECT ON A TS AND THE SERVER SHOULD BE BAN AND BAN AGAIN... C'mon, even Mega with his shitty PC dont take all this time.
Connecting to TS take like... 30sec ? (3 clicks...Wait connect...double click on the chan)
Connecting to the server myb 3min for low conf ? Lets say 5min.

The 10min rule is bullshit. If you add a gather, that mean you can play now, not in 20fucking min

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loMe

Alski Syndrome

Posts: 183
Location: United States of America
Joined: 29 June 2014

Ever heard of the acronym K.I.S.S.? Keep It Simple, Stupid. Why make the server vote NA/EU? Well, aside from the reasons I already mentioned, it simplifies the voting process even more. Pick between 10 servers or pick between two server locations?

Btw, you realize that my original complaint was that the voting system is flawed right? Not that people don't vote.

Edit: Narko, I agree Gathers are slow as fuck to start, but you can't say that it's specifically NA players. Yes, there are people like tap that are constantly going AFK before gathers start, but there are also people like OneHit in the EU that need to restart their computers 3x before connecting. Or iZo leaving gathers and not finding mercs. Those people need to be held accountable, and it's not just up to Sephy to do it, other people have to call them out on it and provide evidence.

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Narkoweed

Team France 2016

Posts: 76
Location: Kingston, Jamaica
Joined: 29 June 2013

loMe says

Ever heard of the acronym K.I.S.S.? Keep It Simple, Stupid. Why make the server vote NA/EU? Well, aside from the reasons I already mentioned, it simplifies the voting process even more. Pick between 10 servers or pick between two server locations?

Btw, you realize that my original complaint was that the voting system is flawed right? Not that people don't vote.

About server i dont really care. People aren't too stupid to go play on a shitty server while there is some good one.

But now you need to click on "add" "NA server" "map" 3 clicks. If people don't vote, it's their fault, not the fault of ppl who voted a shit map (yeah caged is a shit map). Before that it was still 3 clicks... Its not the voting system which is flawed, it's the user who are just dumb and lazzy

edit : ok myb the voting system was flawed on the server vote. But not on the map vote...

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Pelargir

We're grumpy

Posts: 452
Location: Lyon, France
Joined: 6 April 2013

I don't understand why people can't just not vote for a map they don't want to play.

Eclipse, Kodiak and Caged or whatever other maps could have been maintained in the Gather maps list, players only need to not vote for them if they feel like not playing on it...

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“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”

lebra

REFORMED

Posts: 141
Location: no., Iceland
Joined: 17 January 2013

Pelargir says

I don't understand why people can't just not vote for a map they don't want to play.

Eclipse, Kodiak and Caged or whatever other maps could have been maintained in the Gather maps list, players only need to not vote for them if they feel like not playing on it...

One person votes kodiak or caged in hopes of being funny, people go with the flow & vote that as well & so starts the train.
Worse with new players, catastrophic on public matches, people vote yes on map changes or kicking someone without even reading the vote.

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Pelargir

We're grumpy

Posts: 452
Location: Lyon, France
Joined: 6 April 2013

Lambo says

Pelargir says
I don't understand why people can't just not vote for a map they don't want to play.

Eclipse, Kodiak and Caged or whatever other maps could have been maintained in the Gather maps list, players only need to not vote for them if they feel like not playing on it...

One person votes kodiak or caged in hopes of being funny, people go with the flow & vote that as well & so starts the train.
Worse with new players, catastrophic on public matches, people vote yes on map changes or kicking someone without even reading the vote.

Mapvotes on public servers are most of the time stupids. But I can't see how funny voting for Kodiak is.

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“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”

Sephy

We're grumpy

Extra-Staff: FR servers
Posts: 39
Location: France
Joined: 23 May 2014

Another short news, loMe is now the Secondary Gather Admin, he's here to help me and to monitor you :]

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removed_5820

Posts: 20
Location: Europe
Joined: 6 October 2013

Edit: Narko, I agree Gathers are slow as fuck to start, but you can't say that it's specifically NA players. Yes, there are people like tap that are constantly going AFK before gathers start, but there are also people like OneHit in the EU that need to restart their computers 3x before connecting. Or iZo leaving gathers and not finding mercs. Those people need to be held accountable, and it's not just up to Sephy to do it, other people have to call them out on it and provide evidence.[/quote]

LOL

i restart computer 3x and im still faster than the slow joiners.
btw i would/could join in under 1 minute but these fags take always so long to join a gather that i accustom on it, so i join when the slowasses are on the server.

so no bad blood its just the gather mentality

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lebra

REFORMED

Posts: 141
Location: no., Iceland
Joined: 17 January 2013

Pelargir says

Lambo says

Pelargir says
I don't understand why people can't just not vote for a map they don't want to play.

Eclipse, Kodiak and Caged or whatever other maps could have been maintained in the Gather maps list, players only need to not vote for them if they feel like not playing on it...

One person votes kodiak or caged in hopes of being funny, people go with the flow & vote that as well & so starts the train.
Worse with new players, catastrophic on public matches, people vote yes on map changes or kicking someone without even reading the vote.

Mapvotes on public servers are most of the time stupids. But I can't see how funny voting for Kodiak is.

Kodiak was an example, it and the other laughable maps are no longer played and hopefully never will be.

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Narkoweed

Team France 2016

Posts: 76
Location: Kingston, Jamaica
Joined: 29 June 2013

raz says

Edit: Narko, I agree Gathers are slow as fuck to start, but you can't say that it's specifically NA players. Yes, there are people like tap that are constantly going AFK before gathers start, but there are also people like OneHit in the EU that need to restart their computers 3x before connecting. Or iZo leaving gathers and not finding mercs. Those people need to be held accountable, and it's not just up to Sephy to do it, other people have to call them out on it and provide evidence.

I haven't say that it just come from NA players. I said it started since NA players are joining NSL gathers. As I said before, myb you guys are used to wait before to start gather, but we werent and we still arent used to it. So basically, after 10gathers starting after 15/20min, I just started to go smoke, go get a drink, pee, watch shit on the internet, and so on before to join the server. Why ? Because I know it takes ages now to launch those fucking games. So I beleive other EU started to do the same.

raz says

so no bad blood its just the gather mentality

Yeah, and thats what I explained. I'm doing the same cuz waiting is boring...

About maps : lets be honnest. 90% of gather were played on tram, summit, veil, jambi (75% summit veil tram ?). The others maps played were mineral and nexus before the contest week on where they were needed to be play, and sometimes there is a Descent or a Biodome which come from space.
Other maps are/were useless in the list

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loMe

Alski Syndrome

Posts: 183
Location: United States of America
Joined: 29 June 2014

Just want to highlight a moment from last night... We had a100% voter turnout in a gather last night! It split the vote 6-6 between NA/EU. We played on London and all was well. That's got to be a first, right?

Oh and as for those other maps people are mentioning. I don't think it's necessary to have them on the map list unless there's a tournament or something that is using those maps. I know Caged has been updated, but I have no desire to play it unless it's NSL-approved for league play. I don't think we'll ever see KodIak on that list though.

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Pelargir

We're grumpy

Posts: 452
Location: Lyon, France
Joined: 6 April 2013

loMe says

I don't think we'll ever see KodIak on that list though.

True. It will never fit the competitive criterias. Even worse with regard to Eclipse.

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“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”

daemon

Posts: 4
Location: Germany
Joined: 1 December 2014

I see the gathers as an alternative to pcw and normal pub-gaming. It always takes time to get a pcw going but you can almost always join a normal server.

The gather should aim to start a game as quickly as possible but getting a gather started 5min after you joined is next to impossible I guess. It always takes a long time to get 12 player to join the gather. Sometimes you joined up 4-5h before the gather finally starts. That wouldnt be a big problem if some ppl wouldnt forget that they are stlled signed in.

What I would love to see is a system like this:
1) Refreshing of the "signed in" status which means that you have to refresh your status every 60min or you are automatically signed out or in afk-status
2) Something like a waiting-list which means that your status is not "signed in" but "if the gather fills up Id like to get a notification so that I can sign up if Im not afk at that time".

That would improve the usabillity a little bit I guess. On the other hand we are missing a punishmentsystem. If you know that you are going to be banned from the gather for a certain amout of time if you dont stick to the rules people would pay more attention. It would be annoying for admins to watch over every gather-game so a voting system for the people playing in the gather would be perfect. If you can downvote a person that didnt show up in time which could lead to a penalty if this behaviour happens to often people would join up more quickly. Im sure of that ^^

So the aim should be that everyone has to show up in ts 5min after the gather is starting and the game starting 5min after that.

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loMe

Hadesia

simple

loMe

jope

Hadesia

loMe

Sephy

loMe

ryssk

BauerJankins

loMe

jope

Pelargir

MV

removed_5820

simple

Narkoweed

loMe

Narkoweed

Pelargir

lebra

Pelargir

Sephy

removed_5820

lebra

Narkoweed

loMe

Pelargir

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