BauerJankins says

Because only two people have been complaining about descent while everyone else said it should stay as it is

So basically, not enough people have voiced concern to make you want to try out a new layout... nice...

Regardless of if you like the current layout or not, trying new things is what creates progress, if you're not willing to try new things, I pity you.

I personally don't like the vents on descent. I love the map otherwise, but those vents are just bad imo... if people try the new layout and like it more, great, if they try it and don't thats fine too... but to just not try it is lazy.

If descent is kept in the map rotation in its current for like it has been for the past few seasons... then I will deal with it like I always have... but if it can be improved, then i'm all for it... but imo, you don't have a right to say if something is good or bad until you try it.

Kash says

and if you enjoy it, and it balances lower level play more... why wouldn't you want the changes?

EDIT: OK, actually going for a serious post now
I don't even want to try an altered version of descent, because
a - yea, actually because it's work to download and start a custom map which i will most likely not like as much as the original descent anyway
b - there have been only 2(!!!) players voicing their concerns about the current descent - everyone else wanted it to stay in the rotation as it is
c - another non official map which you won't be seeing on pub servers just sucks
d - descent is a really good map, i love it and want it to be descent, not descent 2

BauerJankins says

Kash says

and if you enjoy it, and it balances lower level play more... why wouldn't you want the changes?

EDIT: OK, actually going for a serious post now
I don't even want to try an altered version of descent, because
a - yea, actually because it's work to download and start a custom map which i will most likely not like as much as the original descent anyway
b - there have been only 2(!!!) players voicing their concerns about the current descent - everyone else wanted it to stay in the rotation as it is
c - another non official map which you won't be seeing on pub servers just sucks
d - descent is a really good map, i love it and want it to be descent, not descent 2

a - only some vents are changed
b - everybody will hate the original map if they get baserushed through those bs vents that marines cant do shit against
c - the cdt could just update the map with those changes... (though i never played descent on pub anyway cause nobody wants too)
d - i dont mind descent but there are some balance issues between the spawns (mainly those vents ...)

He changed a few vents so its not really that diffrent.
But it needs some testing, if those vents are necessary or if it needs more.

BauerJankins says

there have been only 2(!!!) players voicing their concerns about the current descent

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post, because that is personal preference, and laziness...

2 players in THIS THREAD have voice their opinion... I talk to a lot of people and most say they dislike Descent simply because of the vents... in fact, 80%+ of lower division players don't like Descent because of the vents.

Just because HERE there haven't been many people saying their thoughts that doesn't mean more people aren't thinking it... they just don't bother posting on forums etc.

From what I can tell, a lot of people only have accounts on the ENSL forums so they can take part in the tournaments... they rarely even look at the forums at all.

I think the vents are one of the main things that makes descent a distinct map with its own feel, it'd feel pointless to have it without all the vents.

I find the map fine and fun to play as is.

In fact, 90%+ of the higher div players like descent, 100%proven

So you're saying you're speaking up for this whole "lower div" community which desperately hates descent as a whole. So there are only two people complaining about the map because ppl in lower divs expect you to do it for them? I don't understand, I don't even want to be annoying or anything, I just don't get your argument. If more people want it to be changed I'll understand, but for now there are only you 2, saying you have half the community behind your back just like that

BauerJankins says

In fact, 90%+ of the higher div players like descent, 100%proven

So you're saying you're speaking up for this whole "lower div" community which desperately hates descent as a whole. So there are only two people complaining about the map because ppl in lower divs expect you to do it for them? I don't understand, I don't even want to be annoying or anything, I just don't get your argument. If more people want it to be changed I'll understand, but for now there are only you 2, saying you have half the community behind your back just like that

I don't think you're being annoying bud, I just think your tunnel visioning the people that actually talk on the forums and considering them "everyone"... most people that I talk to have an issue with the vent... Meph has come up with a potential solution to that... the only thing that I ask is that people give it a chance... if it turns out that people don't like it at all, so be it... but at the very least give it a chance.

Not everyone talks on the forums, not everyone reads the forums, not everyone that reads the forums comments at all... there are so many reasons behind why people aren't being represented on the forums... now i'm not saying that this new vent descent will be amazing, or that it should 100% be THE descent to get played, i'm just asking people to give it a chance.

mortmann says

b - everybody

Who is a moron

mortmann says

will hate the original map if they get baserushed through those bs vents that marines cant do shit against

Seriously? Dem vents can be influenced to massively benefit marines. Most vents for aliens are like "SHIT I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE OR IM GOING TO BE ZONED OUT OF THE GAME AND BE USELESS" and these vents are not different.

Also Kash, that is such a foolish approach; change a map and throw it into the map pool. If you want to give it a chance, change it and play it in PCWs and gathers to get feedback. No need to ruin a tried and tested favourite in an official manner.

Tbh I wanted this version of descent to be tested in gathers and PCWs in the first place. putting a map in the pool without testing is just stupid.

It is an altered version of a map that already is in the pool that's what makes it quite difficult here and I don't care if it ends up in the pool or not (it only took a couple of days)

For those wondering what we talk about it's this: http://www.ensl.org/topics/1500

I think that map would play just as well, obviously a little differently, but nonetheless, just as well. The problem for me is that the only unique qualities about this map is the 2 tiered center (the 4 rooms outside hydro; fluid, receiving, water treatment, shipping).

I don't see how this changes any problems with leaking skulks through to res. In fact this might just enhance alien play because now the two tiered centre has two routes to each natural (except observation), which is just going to make it harder for marines lmfao. Forcing the aliens into the base is a lot better than allowing more fluid movement onto your RTs....

Wob says

I think that map would play just as well, obviously a little differently, but nonetheless, just as well. The problem for me is that the only unique qualities about this map is the 2 tiered center (the 4 rooms outside hydro; fluid, receiving, water treatment, shipping).

I don't see how this changes any problems with leaking skulks through to res. In fact this might just enhance alien play because now the two tiered centre has two routes to each natural (except observation), which is just going to make it harder for marines lmfao. Forcing the aliens into the base is a lot better than allowing more fluid movement onto your RTs....

Even if i play with Meph, and always think he's a complete retard, but that map change could be actually nice.. I havent played Descent that often to judge both maps 100% but for those maybe havent played it that often could give a opinion on it? Maybe some pcws or for the newcomer to see and hear what they say?

Capt'n over n out

I might be a full retard but I am on time with that ryssk

Wob says

Also Kash, that is such a foolish approach; change a map and throw it into the map pool. If you want to give it a chance, change it and play it in PCWs and gathers to get feedback. No need to ruin a tried and tested favourite in an official manner.

At no point did I say "put it in the rotation"... I said, please try it... which was intended to try and get people to PCW on it, to get gathers going on it and maybe maptesters trying out the altered version... I would never say "put it in the rotation" without any feedback on it at all... that would be retarded.

Wob says

I don't see how this changes any problems with leaking skulks through to res. In fact this might just enhance alien play because now the two tiered centre has two routes to each natural (except observation), which is just going to make it harder for marines lmfao. Forcing the aliens into the base is a lot better than allowing more fluid movement onto your RTs....

The changes aren't intended to make leaking skulks less of an issue... but the availability of constant base rushes lessened... the only issue I personally have ever had with Descent is that there are vents going directly into 3 out of 4 spawns... meaning aliens can do cheese rushes all day on it and just annoy the fuck out of the marine team, and regularly in low divisions matches end quickly due to this... as a map I really like descent, if you get rid of those vents... if not, I'd rather dip my balls in a tank of hungry pirahnas than play on it.

Again, in higher play it may be great, but the fact remains in lower divisions, marines already have a hard time winning rounds, Descent is a free alien win for both sides... change the vents and it is far less likely to be the case.

People, please, just TRY the changes and then comment... you may actually be surprised and enjoy the changes, or realize that the changes don't make a huge difference to your experience of play... but it WILL make a big difference to the lower skilled teams.

EVERY game in low divs is an alien win for both sides... i heard

Sorry I got confused what with being in SEASON 7 MAP POOL thread?

Have you ever thought about putting a marine in the middle of the map to scout these "constant base rushes"?

Have you ever thought that this particular map you are just bad at and that sucks? Maybe if it's 1-1 in group stage it doesnt matter much. Maybe if it's in semi-finals you veto it. Maybe you train it, get better at it, and PICK it for semi-finals.

http://www.twitch.tv/malus_draco/c/6374158?t=0m50s OMG SO OP FOR ALIEN PLS

http://www.twitch.tv/heftydk/c/6430032?t=1h35m25s But ofc it does work if you don't scout it...

Thanks for l2p

well none of the videos work for me for some reason but I guess first one ended in something positive for marines and the second one was a baserush because marines didn't scout the vent. And this is the point why alot of people I know hate the map. It is more punishing for mistakes than other maps.

@Wob

So basically.
If I dislike something, its because i'm bad.
If I Think something is imbalanced, its because i'm bad.
If I state that something feels wrong, its because i'm bad.
If you disagree with my points, its because i'm bad.
If I'm talking about low division play, its because i'm bad.
If I Want to try something new, its because i'm bad.

...

I get it, you're "great" at the game...

Now your ego has been stroked can you give me a legitimate reason NOT to TRY the changes?

The changes are bad and everyone in here said descent should stay as it is

BauerJankins says

The changes are bad and everyone in here said descent should stay as it is

Have you tried the changes? Because that is literally all i've been asking for... is for people to TRY them.

mappool:
- mineral should stay
- nexus should be worked on
- descent should stay
- docking2 (I havent played it much) cant say anthing about it

bauer: low div alien winrate is 75% atm.

so far I haven't seen you giving reasons on why the map is bad, give me those and prove them then ok

there is no point in not trying it for sake of saving time for the mapper, the map is already done and if fixes are needed I'm willing to make them

it is just fear speaking of losing current descent because other people might like it and you lose a map that is hard to master

anyway it feels a bit like if there is a possibility to bring low div winrate to 50:50 while not changing the winrate for higher divs you would not want to make those changes cause it changes the game

So changing descent will make low div games 50:50 every game xDDDD

Kash says

@Wob

So basically.
If I dislike something, its because i'm bad.
If I Think something is imbalanced, its because i'm bad.
If I state that something feels wrong, its because i'm bad.
If you disagree with my points, its because i'm bad.
If I'm talking about low division play, its because i'm bad.
If I Want to try something new, its because i'm bad.

Yep.


Kash says

I get it, you're "great" at the game...

Now your ego has been stroked can you give me a legitimate reason NOT to TRY the changes?

I'm bad at stuff too but I play to the setting and context I find myself in instead of trying to change the very thing I'm competing at.

Descent is unique map because of the 2-tiered center and the TP vents.

You will draw it 1-1 in groups so no big deal

You can veto in knockouts so no big deal.

Stop homogenizing and lowering skill ceiling and just fucking L2P or deal with it.

Wob says

Descent is unique map because of the 2-tiered center and the TP vents.

You will draw it 1-1 in groups so no big deal.

Pretty much how I feel about it. I'd rather learn some new strats and take advantage of other teams who can't play it.

There are official maps that suck to play cause of balance, descent isn't one of them. I'd rather keep a different and interesting map as is (although for the record I'm not a huge fan of playing it at the moment anyway).

bauer that was an example following your logic

Wob says

Yep.

You're a dick... you realize that right?


Wob says

Stop homogenizing and lowering skill ceiling and just fucking L2P or deal with it.

Firstly, Altering a few vents is not lowering the skill ceiling, stop being overly dramatic.

Secondly, I am a commander, I can see what people are doing wrong and comment on it, its not up to me to make them practice and fix their ability, that is down to them... but why the hell would you want a map that is almost guaranteed to be 1 - 1? Just because the result is that neither team gains the advantage, that doesn't make the map good/fun for everyone... I like the look, feel and style of the descent map... I don't like the Vents going directly into a spawn... does that mean I can't play? no it fucking doesn't, take your head out of your arse, what it means is that I have a preference that differs from your own, nothing more. Stop being a dick about it.

Thirdly, and i'm going to repeat this YET AGAIN... I have at no point said that this iteration of the map is better, nor that I want it in season 7... All I have asked is that people try it to see what they think... only you and bauer are too fucking stubborn to even try it, i'm not asking you to like it, i'm asking you to at least give it a go... you may be surprised, you MAY actually like it and see that it hasn't changed the map that much... or you could do as you have so far and refuse to try it because you're content to sit on your make believe throne and insist that if people don't perform at a higher level they are clearly wrong.

wob is actually right about lowering skill ceiling for the map with that version...

tbh I'll just shut up and enjoy the show. I can understand both parties so well it's not even funny anymore...

gg wp

Kash says

Wob says

Yep.

You're a dick... you realize that right?

Lmao I was being sarcastic in response to your strawmen. I NEVER understood how calling someone bad at something was an insult. It's a common type of ignorance and arrogance to expect to not be bad at something or called out on it. But whatever, go ahead and get worked up and angry over something so small. BTW I'll let you know I'm bad at speaking languages, playing football, riding a bike, and probably a lot of other stuff (but I'll let you in on a secret... I'm good at other stuff, and I try not to do things I don't enjoy!)

Kash says

Wob says

Stop homogenizing and lowering skill ceiling and just fucking L2P or deal with it.

Firstly, Altering a few vents is not lowering the skill ceiling, stop being overly dramatic.

Well it is because good marines can channel aliens into the tempting looking base rush, deny all aliens and cap the map. Good marines need to learn how to deal with these potentially devastating vents. You remove them, there is a decreased need for high skilled map awareness and manipulation.

Kash says

Secondly, I am a commander, I can see what people are doing wrong and comment on it, its not up to me to make them practice and fix their ability, that is down to them...

So your style of commanding is bad on descent where you might need to reposition your marines via micro-management. That's OK! You don't have to feel bad because you are bad! Just lose that map, veto it, or get better... Losing is not a bad thing....

Kash says

but why the hell would you want a map that is almost guaranteed to be 1 - 1? Just because the result is that neither team gains the advantage, that doesn't make the map good/fun for everyone...

It's not guaranteed to be 1-1. L2p and make it 2-0. Higher skilled teams (And this is what I've basically been saying) have the opportunity to express their skill on this map. I seriously think it's the map with the highest skill ceiling. This allows 2-0 games and separates more teams apart from each other.

Kash says

I like the look, feel and style of the descent map... I don't like the Vents going directly into a spawn... does that mean I can't play? no it fucking doesn't, take your head out of your arse, what it means is that I have a preference that differs from your own, nothing more. Stop being a dick about it.

You CAN play other maps. I have a preference that differs from your own, so does that mean you have to change this map (my favourite btw)? This is precisely why we veto in the knockouts... some maps favour other teams more than others - PLAY TO YOUR STRENGTHS. It's laughable that L2P creates such an aggressive response. Grow up or the admins will lock this thread.

Kash says

Thirdly, and i'm going to repeat this YET AGAIN... I have at no point said that this iteration of the map is better, nor that I want it in season 7...

Go and fucking post in that map's thread then and stop derailing this thread which is about season 7's map pool. Not season 8, not custom maps, not map re-design, not balance, not anything but season 7 and maps which are ready and viable for season 7. Descent should stay for season 7 as it is.

Kash says

All I have asked is that people try it to see what they think... only you and bauer are too fucking stubborn to even try it, i'm not asking you to like it, i'm asking you to at least give it a go...

Sorry did I say I wouldn't even try it? You escalated so quickly because of a couple of people defending the current descent because you want to push your own agenda backed by the "vast majority of the unspoken" you've decided to speak for :D

Kash says

because you're content to sit on your make believe throne and insist that if people don't perform at a higher level they are clearly wrong.

It's not so much of a higher level as a less retarded one. If you seriously can't scout these vents which you've so obviously identified as problems, I can't have sympathy for you. There are some things which are so basic or standard that you just shouldn't accommodate for. You've identified these vents, so protect them. It's not like we're nerfing LMG damage to 1dmg/bullet and asking you to increase your aim... That would seem a bit ridiculous....






Now would you politely care to stop your ad hominem and actually respond.

1. Descent is unique map because of the 2-tiered center and the TP vents.

2. You will draw it 1-1 in groups so no big deal. (Is it because you said it's not fun to draw 1-1?)

3. You can veto in knockouts so no big deal.

Wob says

blah blah blah, i'm so good at this game, I must know better than everyone, blah blah blah

Descent is unique due to its 2-tiered center... yes, I agree, that is obvious, there is no need to continuously repeat obvious statements, I didn't respond, because no response was needed.
But the TP vents are just stupid, yes I CAN block them, yes I CAN micromanage to make sure they aren't an issue, but the map becomes more about the vents than it should be. Just because I don't like something that doesn't mean I can't counter it. Your so far up your own arse you don't even realize that disliking and being incapable of dealing with something are two different things.

Draw 1 - 1 is boring... and yet again, you only talk about "high skill" matches... the skill level of low division teams is comparable to that of division 2 teams back in season 2 - 3... which means the "low" skill teams are still much better than they used to be. so the "L2P" argument is an arrogant one, and believe me bud, i'm not pissed off, I just emphasize aggressively... its where i'm from... you'd have to do a lot more than you're doing to even start getting on my nerves.

"the map is fine because you can refuse to play it" - Veto... the Perfect way to balance a map... GG, dickhead.