[S12 D3 Finals] 8bitgamers vs Saunabois RuleDissc.

Mega
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25 February 2018 - 21:55 CET
#1
Aazu | Saunabois
ggs

Next time when you pause before our most important push of the game, pls do it like rules say. That tactical pause aspect is not so bad, as we could also talk what we do next, but our com was not able to do anything for 10sec and had to jump out chair and back after resume. We also lost our momentum at that point. Think there are some rules about this, but they are not followed as usual and ref should maybe check em too... /salty

24 February 2018, 08:40



Kash | For the Lolz
Basically, the way my mind worked in this situation was -

1. Saw 8-bit break the rules.
2. Thought, "that should be a forfeit right there... that's bullshit."
3. Heard their reason for breaking the rules
4. Though, "man, I'd feel really shitty if that happened to us and we were forced to forfeit."
5. Came to the conclusion that they should still be punished, but it should be a lighter punishment, like replaying the final round.

In the end, rules were still broken, 8-bit should be punished.

If the admins don't enforce the rules, whats the point in having them?

Either way, if you ignore this one bad part, it was a great match and both teams played really well GGs all and good job on the casting Cabooble.

24 February 2018, 10:51



POPI | pubstars
whats the point of rules if you can break them without punishment, that pause timing was in crucial point.

And 8bit defend was:
consumer99: fyi, the pause was because our player medpack lost their mouse, who also lost their fade because of it.

- But if you look at the stream medpack lost hes fade at 31:20 (game clock) and pause was called 32:02 without asking referee to pause. And because of that Kapuh had com bug and could not scan for arcs or med marines in that push

How can you lost your mouse?

24 February 2018, 13:40



Stormbell | 8bitgamers
the mouse stopt working if you look after he lost the fade in the stream when the arcs are comming in he is standing still in the hive becuse he cant use the mouse its probebly my bad gramer that made it bad

24 February 2018, 17:37



Kash | For the Lolz
The reason doesn't stop the rules being broken, they just apply context to the situation.

Does it suck that his mouse broke? yes, but -

1. You didn't ask a ref to pause.
2. You paused at a crucial point of the round, while combat was inevitable and almost constant.

Both of these things are against the rules... If the rules don't get enforced, you may as well not have the rules at all.

If you had requested a pause, the referee is then at fault if the pause is badly timed... but you didn't.

24 February 2018, 19:38



Mega | pubstars
1st is You don't have to ask a Referee any more to Pause the Game that part got removed b4 the Season Started you wont find it anywhere in the Rules.
(the times you heard it on stream that where just people being wrong didn't read rules correctly)


2nd The pause timer luckily went to 0 right after Stobbez died and right b4 the Aliens went around the corner so it didn't interference as much on combat as you might think.




GGs everyone didnt watch the whole thing yet but looked like Good Games

24 February 2018, 20:44



Kash | For the Lolz
Okay, I wasn't aware that the necessity to request a pause was removed, Its nice to know that going forward.

But that still doesn't justify the pause -

(iii) Pauses are only to be used to enable a player who has an unexpected connection issue to reconnect to the server.

The above states that pauses are to only be used to allow a player to reconnect... there was no disconnect, and as such, this rule was broken.

(iv) Teams may pause BUT as not interferencing with combat as possible CLEARLY abusing the pause function for tactical advantage/winning combats may lead to forfeiting the round for the pausing team.

This rule, while appallingly worded, seems to state that gaining tactical advantage due to a pause can result in punishment... which after watching live and then rewatching the VoD, 8-bit gained a LOT from that pause...

If nothing is done, it will just further demonstrate that the nsl admins don't give a fuck about the rules... either enforce the rules, or get rid of the rules.

24 February 2018, 22:16



BauerJankins | Gone Camping
kash fuck off this is a match page and none of your business you fucking shill, go mind your own business
and please ban yourself from commenting again
surely your puppet would gladly do anything you ask

25 February 2018, 16:19



Aazu | Saunabois
Im not here to ask for forfeit (but still some justice), but if one of their players hits mouse to table so hard it breaks down or throws it on floor after losing his fade, sure that sucks but why we need to suffer from it? Not saying we would have won 100%, but check that stream and you see we had pretty strong position.

After his mouse died, sure we might had advantage if they had -1 player for some time (replug ur mouse, pick it from floor or so), but after that resume it really turned against us when we had no com for a while and messed our (and mainly our com) game and momentum.

We just killed hive with same arcs few minutes before this push, when they had 2 fade lerk etc...think we could have killed that hive also with meds, scans and 4 arcs.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/232043054?t=03h57s
Mega
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25 February 2018 - 22:14 CET
#2
Its really hard to predict the Future what would have happened cause who knows if he would have missed all meds or the crag suddenly walked into the arcs or missed all shots or whatever...

so sorry im not up with that whole "would have happened" or would have been different if.


So back to the rules they are pretty bad worded like he should have pretended to have a redplug instead of a mouse issue and then that first complain would not matter... see the problem about this rule its promoting to lie about the facts...

To the 2nd Rule has 2 "may" s in it and a big "CLEARLY" so yeah its not clearly worded either on purpose to give some room on a very subjective rule for subjective ruling cause what is "clearly" in that regard.. anyway

i think for the Remaining Season to stay on consistent ruling on these 2 Rules based on past matches its gonna be
2 Pauses for Technical difficulties
and if possible not in combat but well



Will have to rework the rules for the next Tournament etc
Will probably be something like each team has 2 Pauses per Match end of story easiest to remember and makes most sense..
or if a Player has a Technical issue and make the countdown timer bigger visible ingame somehow.


Want to suggest Rule changes/adjustments go ahead:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XiqX4tPEbTKg60hfZPoN8WCWuT95FMrCNjejsvLxLAo/edit
Aazu
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26 February 2018 - 00:03 CET
#3

Mega says

Its really hard to predict the Future what would have happened cause who knows if he would have missed all meds or the crag suddenly walked into the arcs or missed all shots or whatever...




Ye? So maybe we replay that round and see what would happen? As you can see from stream, we just recovered from relocation of our base (16min), killed their main hive (28min), and were going for last hive (32min).



Mega says

So back to the rules they are pretty bad worded like he should have pretended to have a redplug instead of a mouse issue and then that first complain would not matter... see the problem about this rule its promoting to lie about the facts...




So if he just had alt + f4 during that push, its all ok to pause because he just happened to lose connection after his fade? And you think I wouldnt be here complaining about it?



Mega says

To the 2nd Rule has 2 "may" s in it and a big "CLEARLY" so yeah its not clearly worded either on purpose to give some room on a very subjective rule for subjective ruling cause what is "clearly" in that regard.. anyway




Ye this rule clearly is pretty random, since "Its really hard to predict the Future what would have happened cause who knows."

But sure its always fun to (maybe) lose after breaking X rules (f*ng our game) + bug.



Luftwaffel
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26 February 2018 - 01:06 CET
#4
I can see that it looks shady when you dont look very closely, but if you do you see certain things:


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/232043054?t=02h58m30s
Medpack respawns, can't move


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/232043054?t=02h58m47s
-Stobez runs past immobilized and shaded Medpack
-Kattkattis starts attacking the only observatory in their base (look at minimap)


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/232043054?t=02h58m57s
-Kattkattis kills the only obervatory in their base
-Stormbell already issued PVE to move behind hive (including shade that has ink)
-Stormbell already locked out of hive ready to bile the arcs (He made call for someone to ink, but that's hard to prove)
-I fly into hive with 15% hp, type pause with stobez being right there (even If I were abusing pause, which I most certainly did not, I would for sure not do that while I am low with a marine next to me)


I dont know why the commander logged out, perhaps because he couldnt scan anymore, but that was due to the only obs being destroyed. Even if he really couldnt do anything, there was no engagement during the time he was out. I dont see how the marines could have done much differently without the pause (given that medpack could have moved). There were only 3 marines outside the hive with a lerk spiking (another in the hive), fade behind them, hallucinations, rupture, bonewall, PVE no scans.

In my opinion if a player is unable to play due to technical difficulties (or even others such as emergencies), the team should be able to pause. The limit of 2 per round is also very reasonable. If our opponents have a player that is unable to play, I would want them to pause as well (which teams have done in officials in the past, without anybody saying anything, neither ref, nor us nor anyone else).
Aazu
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26 February 2018 - 08:41 CET
#5

Luftwaffel says

I can see that it looks shady when you dont look very closely, but if you do you see certain things:



tbh, more I look it more pissed I get cos think we could have done it. But sure this is all just my qq and WHAT IF, but if you cant see other outcome than you win after that situation, I call it bs also. I want emphasis, that we lost that game 1sec after resume, not after 1min when we all died.


Luftwaffel says

Kattkattis kills the only obervatory in their base



Ye we noticed this, and our com told us that we need new obs asap. As you can see, our com dropped obs near ur hive (power was still up in that room), but said its in wrong place and need replace.


Luftwaffel says

Even if he really couldnt do anything, there was no engagement during the time he was out. I dont see how the marines could have done much differently



Keep marines alive, build obs and keep medding? Our com is not a machine or very very experienced, and when we had that plan what we gonna do next, it all fell apart when our com was not able to do anything after resume. As you can see, there is zero meds, and even after our com get back to chair, its all gone alredy cos he has so much to do (move map where players are, get that obs up, take care about arcs, med players and get shit together.) But ye sure this was all becouse of bug?, and nothing to do with you, except giving you win.


Luftwaffel says

There were only 3 marines outside the hive with a lerk spiking (another in the hive), fade behind them, hallucinations, rupture, bonewall, PVE no scans.



And soon there was no fades, 2 lerks up, but at that point it was already too late, since our players started die cos of no med. And sure you have Ink ability, but there is also some timer on it, and it didnt save ur first hive which we killed with 3 arcs.


Luftwaffel says

In my opinion if a player is unable to play due to technical difficulties (or even others such as emergencies), the team should be able to pause.



Yes I agree, only thing is the timing of the pause. MAYBE ask or tell other team you need to pause, make pause timer longer? But this time timing killed us, since we were already on the edge.



Mephilles
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26 February 2018 - 10:14 CET
#6
@Mega is that your opinion or are you representating the NSL admin stance with that?

Unfortunately it is alwas possible to fake a needed pause by one of the players doing the alt+f4 and fake a disconnect that way. There is absolutely no way to prove if he rly has technical difficulties. The only way I can think of figuring out if a team has a malicious intent is to record their TS channel and I am not sure if that goes too far.

Slightly off-topic @aazu. Kapuh might be not very experienced but there were some plays where he rly impressed me. I think if he gains some more experience he will become a strong commander.

I just wish this last round wouldn't have any drama at all... this round was one of the most intense and fun to watch since ns2wc for me. I mean if I basically scream at my screen at pawni for not seeing this tunnel (sry bro) then I know this game has hooked me.

So in the end no matter how the decision in the end is I want saunabois to know that you pulled an incredible game there and I saw you guys improved a lot just by looking how you worked your way through the entire lower bracket of the playoffs.
Luftwaffel
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26 February 2018 - 14:17 CET
#7

Aazu says

And soon there was no fades, 2 lerks up, but at that point it was already too late, since our players started die cos of no med. And sure you have Ink ability, but there is also some timer on it, and it didnt save ur first hive which we killed with 3 arcs.




https://www.twitch.tv/videos/232043054?t=03h01m10s
You see meds being dropped before anyone dies. Pawni just overextends 10 sec after and dies. The pause was not in a direct fight and the next fight you had your comm medding. I dont see how we got a big advantage out of this other than Medpack being able to play again.



Aazu says

I want emphasis, that we lost that game 1sec after resume, not after 1min when we all died.





I see nothing going in our favor for the next 15 seconds after the resume. The other way around, we lose our only fade. You only lose your marines after comm is medding again.





Aazu
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26 February 2018 - 15:42 CET
#8

Luftwaffel says




I see nothing going in our favor for the next 15 seconds after the resume. The other way around, we lose our only fade. You only lose your marines after comm is medding again.







There is also lot of else going on. We have no obs (no new pg near hive), first obs blueprint drop in wrong room, losing pg middle of map, managing to not over med with that res. Like said, our com is not div1 med machine that has every trick on hes sleeve, and throwing that pause middle of our push def got us lost (not blaming him tho).

Pause was not in during fight? LOL we just had scanned ur base and arcs made first attack ur hive. :D
Luftwaffel
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26 February 2018 - 15:55 CET
#9
the obs died before the pause. I dont know what you could have done differently without the pause
Aazu
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26 February 2018 - 16:03 CET
#10

Luftwaffel says

the obs died before the pause. I dont know what you could have done differently without the pause




Maybe you spend little time and read what I wrote?

It all pretty much comes that it gave you room to breath, and messed our game.

Sure you don't see it and I see it from different perspective.

And thanks Mephilles, was good tournament and we also felt the improvement. Still long wayyy to go... :d
Luftwaffel
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26 February 2018 - 16:24 CET
#11
Yeah it's incredible how strong you got so quickly. It was definetly the strongest two teams in the finals and those were hard fought games :)
Aazu
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26 February 2018 - 16:29 CET
#12

Luftwaffel says

Yeah it's incredible how strong you got so quickly. It was definetly the strongest two teams in the finals and those were hard fought games :)




Ye, too bad game was decided by broken mouse...
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26 February 2018 - 18:22 CET
#13
I'm sorry this has happened to you.

My interpretation of the pause function is to try to minimise the interruption of a 6v6 game from whatever fault. Naturally any pause is going to throw off the flow of a game and cause an interruption, but I didn't feel that this was an intentional disruption or one of bad sportsmanship.
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1 March 2018 - 09:11 CET
#14
Not saying its bad sportsmanship or so, but something that way and between. Even if its Div3, they should have realized that its game deciding moment going on.

Like Bauer said, would have loved to see outcome of this, IF this would have happened eg 8bit vs team.ru, and team.ru winning the game. There would be rulebooks flying, and not even discussion was it forfeit or not (double rule breaking bug abuse lul).
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3 March 2018 - 02:33 CET
#15
The following is my personal opinion.

While being paused on during important engagements sucks, it is important to remember that technical difficulties can happen at any time. Shady things happening does not mean malicious intent, and I dont understand how the pause affected you any more than it affects the team you are up against. While I do agree that stratting during technical difficulties should not be allowed, how are you going to force this during an ONLINE match? I read an idea above to monitor teamspeaks and that is, really, the only option. What is going to happen when a real malicious team starts to abuse pauses by lag switching, dcing, and then stratting in another application (discord for example)? How is an online tournament supposed to stop this from happening, apart from monitoring what your pcs are doing and building our own anti cheat for this cause.

The problem with this is that there could have been a real problem here, but there is no way to prove such things happening in an online scenario. We can't also just neglect when these problems really happen and just have the game be played out in a 5v6, that is an even bigger free win than pausing and resuming once both teams are back and ready to play as 6, even if your "groove" has turned.

Pauses happen in every game, and it sucks. However, there is not a lot we can do about it in online scenarios apart from possibly taking a more aggressive stance and forcing side/map replays during the official or not giving a point for a win. However the proof of abusing has to outweigh the possibility of not faking it by a lot.


PS: While pauses in a game such as ns2 might suck, pauses during online tournaments in rts games are far worse. Not only that, but RTS games do NOT HAVE A TIMER. The pauses are instant. So, if you are playing on a high level with 500 APM (actions per minute) and you hit an INSTANT pause for a straight minute, its going to suck a lot more than pausing in an fps game such as this one. In my opinion, we are already very lenient in ns2 with pauses for the opposing team with timers, and I, for one, would get rid of the timers and force players to give an explanation for their pause instantly after pausing. This way everyone would know the reason and can check the streams to possibly confirm that reason.

Kash
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3 March 2018 - 15:16 CET
#16
If I recall correctly, this is the exact reason the rule "ask a ref to pause" existed in the first place, that way a reason can be given for the pause and the ref will call for a pause when he/she thinks its appropriate.
When the ref called a pause it was common knowledge that you shouldn't engage in combat and if you were in combat at that time, you should try to get out of it, not try to get a kill.

Rather than monitoring TS or setting up an anticheat etc, why not just simply bring back that rule and have it enforced?

Doing so would resolve any issues like this going forward.

Did you pause without requesting? yes, well tough shit, you should be punished for breaking the rules.
Did the ref call the pause? yes, then whatever happens afterwards is legit.

Being able to pause for your own team just opens up the potential for it to be abused, more so than if a ref were to do it.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
Aazu
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4 March 2018 - 10:14 CET
#17
Ask ref for it, or tell other team you need pause, and when other team confirms this withn reasonable time, you can pause. Ok maybe getting too tricky. Atleast the current rules that you can pause anytime for any reason sounds pretty wild (ohh soz this was already in rules (iii)). Or how these guys did it, call pause and while we are like wtf pause timer on, they still kill our player. Rename it as tactical pause, would solve it all... :d

Pause like this sure doesn't matter so much if it happens in match during group phase, early game when gorge is building nano and there is not much going on. But this pause happened during finals, Bo5 last map, last deciding push (ye sure). Technical difficulties happen, but also if you happen to rage often so much you break ur peripherals, maybe keep replacement close by (yesyes I know, he should have fake dc).

All that TS recording is bollocks imo.
BearJankins
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4 March 2018 - 14:14 CET
#18

Kash says

If I recall correctly,




wrong, i can tell you what the reason was

HINT HINT it had something to do with someone being a shadow admin and controlling another admin at the same time
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
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