NSL

swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

As we know Zefram created a new ruleset with better wording and set it up neatly so it's much easier to read. But, yes there is unfortunately a but, there are some of the old rules that are left out and now the rules say practically nothing about it. As an experienced ex-admin I tried contacting Zefram himself about the issues but was quickly dismissed even though I even took the time to re-write the part of the rules for him(found as a comment here http://www.ensl.org/articles/859). So take this as some form of a protest post.

Some of these things are obvious to most of us here, but the league should supposedly be more newbie friendly now, as per the new "Mission statement", so I think these are important points. Because nothing is self-explanatory when you're new to something.

Right now, there are no rules about match procedures other than the format(bo5, bo7 etc.). So technically, teams can sit and argue forever if both want to start their match as alien, or marine for that matter. There are also no rules about the coinflips, map decision. So it's basicly up to the teams to decide these things, as the rules say nothing about it. Remember that for your official games ;)

Also some other rules have gotten out of hand in my opinion and I'd also like to take up the subject of the match deadlines. I definitely agree that the ruling on this point was too slack before and caused some teams to deliberately delay their matches to get extra practice time and whatnot. But now it is just unnessesarily strict and matches that should be played are forfeited here and there. To name an example: onFire vs Envy. http://www.ensl.org/matches/5551
The highest priority of the admins should to have all the games played, regardless of deadlines(with one exception, the deadline of the beginning of the playoffs). I really think this should be immediately re-thought by the admins and have the matches that suffer from it played, instead of these silly forfeits they have recieved. It's okay to use common sense once in a while.

Discuss!

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Pelargir

We're grumpy

Posts: 452
Location: Lyon, France
Joined: 6 April 2013

In my opinion, you're certainly right about add more details for the new NSL rules. Teams can decide by themselves to start as Marines or Aliens, players are mature enough to have no troubles with that, add the first team mentioned starts as Marines or something else I don't know, it doesn't matter for me. I referred so many matches & I never saw any problem with that. You want to play Marines first, as you want if the other team agrees, & generally, both teams agree. That's exatly the same for the map, teams don't care & if there's any issue, the dedicated referee can take final decision (but as the previous one, I never saw any problem).

For the rest of rules you want to add, I have no real opinion, could be interesting yes, as you want & personally I don't care, the current ones seem to be enough but why not?

What's more, I pretty agree with you about deadlines. Of course, teams have to play their matches in time. For season 3 at least, there were so many troubles with teams to complete their own matches. Do you think deadline is useless? No, clearly not, but as Arj proposed on the onFire/Envy match page, it could be wise to add before playoffs or I don't know, another week especially to play some matches never played like the last example. But adding this week doesn't mean teams can play until the end of this week, I hope no.

NSL is international, we have now NA, EU, AUS, so many teams with different timezones, this is hard, for all divisions except maybe Premier & Div 4 to play all their matches, teams can have some troubles to play their matches in time, adding this week could be helpful for everyone. We want teams play matches, of course if teams can't play, there's a forfeit if one of the team doesn't prove its investment to find a time to play BUT if we can avoid no matches, NSL could be better.

This is only my opinion, maybe not the best, I let you give yours.

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nezz

Envy

Posts: 28
Location: Australia
Joined: 23 November 2012

Being personally affected by the rushed decision in the game between envy and onfire.

I disagree with a "catch up" week at the end to play games

Its lead me to believe there is a huge communication failure at admin/referee & teams level causing massive problems. Problems that should be avoided.

Using the envy vs onfire game as a example. I feel the admins skimmed read the comments and make a decision based of very little information. A decision that would not of happened if admins had a quick discsusion with team leaders.

There has to be a level of leniency & common sense (I know, its not really common) if ensl continues down the international path

Things need to drastically change and be reviewed. I and alot of other people have been off put by the approach this season has taken.

The reason why there should be a procedure about who gets what team first, using the WC as a example. Marine biased all day so basically you were almost handing the win to the arguably lesser team. Ofcourse this cant be avoided in every instance but leaving it up to the players is asking for a problem

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sublime

Posts: 488
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Joined: 6 May 2005

When did the mop-up week stop happening??

It's the best of both worlds really - you get to rage people up by forcing a forfeit and then play the game at the end anyway

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swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

Just to note, I don't want the cleanup week back. But these deadlines are way too harsh for international games. The oF vs Envy game proves it.

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Pelargir

We're grumpy

Posts: 452
Location: Lyon, France
Joined: 6 April 2013

Maybe they're too harsh, but what do you suggest?

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“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”

swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

I suggest that admins make exceptions with these deadlines, handle it case-by-case. Just like I did when I was league admin. Don't get me wrong, I think the deadlines should stay as guidelines, but they should be able to be circumvented in special cases. Currently this rule is way too robotic, need more humanity in the spirit of NSL.
From my experience most teams like to(or have to) take days off during the weekends and for international games you are bound to play in the weekends. Sometimes you simply cannot get a match going for two coherent weekends.
I think especially the oF vs Envy match was handled poorly and I don't think it is the only match that have suffered from this.

On the note of the other rules I mentioned, you probably haven't experienced issues with it because the teams and players are used to the old rules and people are generally showing good sportsmanship, but when you remove the rules you open up for teams possibly exploiting these things. If the rules are kept this way, I would expect these issues to arise sometime. It's more of a "better safe than sorry" scenario.

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joshhhy

Barrel O' Monkey's

Posts: 67
Location: Milwaukee, Earth
Joined: 25 February 2013

A 2 week block is more than enough to get a scheduled time in. You guys are acting like they give us 2 days or something. Scheduling seems to only be a problem for a select few teams. If this was a glaring issue where tons of teams could not meet the deadline then I might be inclined to agree... but as it stands, keeping the schedule to a strict but generous 2 week block per match is fine.

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bonage

JUST THE TIP

Posts: 34
Location: Australia
Joined: 15 November 2012

swalk says

I suggest that admins make exceptions with these deadlines, handle it case-by case. Just like I did when I was league admin. Don't get me wrong, I think the deadlines should stay, but they should be able to be circumvented in special cases.
From my experience most teams like to(or have to) take days off during the weekends and for international games you are bound to play in the weekends. Sometimes you simply cannot get a match going for two coherent weekends.

This. Deadlines are important, but let's be realistic here - this is a niche game with a small community, you cannot expect everyone to be able to play their games every week on time for an entire season. Additionally, since NSL is various different timezones, and the chance of scheduling conflicts increases exponentially.

In the case of international games, blanket rules fail to benefit the league and the teams playing. Having a blind adherence to a given rule set for the sake of consistency makes no sense in an environment like this. If you want minority international teams to be able to play in this league, leniency needs to be applied in the right circumstances by admins.

Also there is a big difference between a team not responding or communicating within the allotted deadline, and a team that did make contact, but then couldn’t play due to extenuating circumstances. If you are going to be consistent, the admins should award a double forfeit due if both given teams are available on one date, but not another.
Why is fair that a team that is available to play closest to the deadline be awarded the win if they were not available for the beginning period of the allotted playing period? What is to stop international teams from abusing this rule by refusing to play early and forcing their opponents to either be available closer to the deadline or default ?

The issues regarding international matches in vastly different timezones are:

- International matches, especially ones between Australian and European teams, CANNOT be played during the week due to extreme timezone differences. Most teams are only available to play after their day at work, or university etc. It is completely unrealistic to expect them to be able to play during the daytime, as would have to happen in some of these international games.

- As such, international games will almost always be played on weekends. The current setup means that a max of 2 weekends are available for games to be played.

- Communication between international timezones is also a slower process, meaning that it can take much longer to solidify a time and day when both teams are able to play.

Now looking specifically at the onfire vs Envy match, what happened was quite unfortunate.

Here are the reported facts for that match:

• Onfire couldn’t make the first scheduled weekend, forcing it back to the last remaining weekend. Both teams were in communication initially for this scheduled time.

• Envy couldn’t make the 2nd scheduled weekend.

• Envy was given 3 days after the weekend to schedule during the week to finish the match. Given that this was midweek, this was untenable.

• SUPER_SARS called the forfeit before the deadline, highlighting a breakdown in communication between the admins/refs and the teams involved.

• Deadline came and went, zefram called the forfeit.

My issue is that there are 2 free weeks now that mimic and Joan of Arc pulled out. Moreover, both teams in question had a free week this week to play this match. Onfire seemed willing to play it too, but there was no further communication from the admin team (at least on the match page/envy’s end), upholding the ban, despite the circumstances. For the spirit of sportsmanship, and for the sake of what this league is intended for, it’s a disappointing result given that everyone in the ns2 community is quite close and understanding.

Ultimately, you have to ask yourselves what are the rules trying to achieve – are they there to safeguard the integrity of the league? Or are they there to hinder it, and deter teams from playing again. It’s a balancing act for sure, but at the end of the day this is prizeless tournament that is for the benefit of amateur players who play for enjoyment, not money.

Nobody is asking for the rules to go or be broken regularly – it’s simply a case of there being a need for leniency in the right circumstances, which I believe this case was.

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AusNS2 Admin

Seb

Posts: 95
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 23 April 2013

joshhhy says

You guys are acting like they give us 2 days or something.

Because there really are only 2 days to schedule AU vs EU in a 2 week period

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Zefram

Posts: 235
Location: United States of America
Joined: 16 November 2012

swalk, just because I chose not to act on your suggestions does not mean you were dismissed. I read and listened to all your complaints. I just don't agree they were important enough to edit the rules.

The rules about coin flips and map decisions were intentionally left out of the rule set for now, because we're in the group stages where coin flips and map decisions don't need to be made and I wasn't 100% sure what the exact format of the playoffs might be. Rules for that would have been announced before the playoffs would have started and really have no bearing on how the season plays out. Teams still need to jockey for position and the best seeding. If nothing else, just for pride and sportsmanship.

As for something as inconsequential as what side each team starts during the regular season, I haven't seen a problem with letting the teams decide for themselves. Your argument is that winning one side first might impart a huge psychological advantage to one team is pretty laughable. It has a negligible impact. Teams haven't been idling on a server for tons of time arguing about it, if at all. You're really the only one who's even mentioned it. As it is, both teams have to play both sides, so it barely even matter at this stage.

Deadlines. We've gone through this several times already. The previous seasons with lax scheduling rules and clean up weeks were idiotic on many levels and probably made for the most inefficiency in the league. It held back games being played, infuriated teams, and made the NSL staff's job a nightmare. Who wants to actually worry about Week 1's games months later or having to play 12 rounds in one day (one team actually did this and a few played 2-3 matches in a single day also). On top of that, sometimes it delayed the playoffs too. This isn't even to mention that the dispersal of games were loaded at the beginning of the season and at the end with huge gaps in the middle without games, because some teams were excited to play and then some teams would abuse this system to "train and get better". It just didn't work on so many levels and yet was not changed for 3 seasons. That's a huge oversight.

So now we have more defined scheduling rules. I see nothing wrong with the 10 day rule of the posted match dates. Remember, you have 10 days from the day the dates are posted. Not only that, you've received these dates more than 2 MONTHS ago and fully know when you're suppose to play. If you know 2 to 3 months in advance, you should EASILY be responsible enough to schedule your matches and prepare. Anything is really just a lack of communication and poor planning.

In the case of the onFire and Envy match. It was not a "rushed" or rash decision and doesn't "prove" anything about international scheduling rules. Almost everyone on Envy is listed as a leader, but when one person isn't available to schedule a match, the rest of the team members can't pick up the slack or doesn't wonder what's going on? The rules are clear about scheduling and the procedures for it. There were no comments from Envy, per the rules about match comments on the match page. If there was an unforeseen hardship, I was not contacted by any member of that team until it was already too late. The responsibility and common sense is solely on the teams that need extensions to contact me. You had more than enough time to schedule and/or contact me.

The rules aren't unnecessarily strict. Teams have ample foreknowledge of their matches. 10 days is the span of 2 weekends. 2 to 3 MONTHS of time is more than enough to get their teams in order and play, even with international matches. Being an international league, the rules were made with international matches in mind. That time frame is more than fair and accommodates many circumstances.

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nezz

Envy

Posts: 28
Location: Australia
Joined: 23 November 2012

Zefram says

In the case of the onFire and Envy match. It was not a "rushed" or rash decision. Almost everyone on Envy is listed as a leader, but when one person isn't available to schedule a match, the rest of the team members can't pick up the slack or doesn't wonder what's going on? The rules are clear about scheduling and the procedures for it. There were no comments from Envy, per the rules about match comments on the match page. If there was an unforeseen hardship, I was not contacted by any member of that team until it was already too late. The responsibility and common sense is solely on the teams that need extensions to contact me. You had more than enough time to schedule and/or contact me. I was also told at the time that Envy was a week or two behind on their AusNS2 league matches also. So it obviously was a team issue and not an NSL/international match issue.

The rules aren't unnecessarily strict. Teams have ample foreknowledge of their matches. 10 days is the span of 2 weekends. 2 to 3 MONTHS of time is more than enough to get their teams in order and play, even with international matches. Being an international league, the rules were made with international matches in mind. That time frame is more than fair and accommodates many circumstances.

Zefram, This post shows you did not read the comments par the post on the envy vs onfire. Please re-read before you be silly again.

1. onFire saying they are unavailable first weekend.
2. onFire saying they were availabel at 2 sepereate times (11am and later. Overing a "oh we can play earlier")
3. Me saying these times are insufficient can we play next week.
4. You & super_sars forcing forfiet after skim reading.

Where the FUCK did you get us behind on our Ausns2 league matches? This shows your lack of real life communication skills & more-so your bias towards certain teams in this competition.

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Zefram

Posts: 235
Location: United States of America
Joined: 16 November 2012

I'll retract my statement about your AusNS2 matches. I don't keep copious notes of my steam conversations and have "no proof".

After talking with nezz over mumble about the situation, I've decided to allow the replay of match since both teams seem willing to play. This will be an exception and not the rule. The expectation still is to play your matches within the 10 day period. You still have had months of notice. But if there are extraordinary hardships from teams that prevent playing, teams must contact me about extensions and reschedules. As always, leave more detailed notes in the match pages. It's really my only source of information when I'm trying to make decisions about forfeits. I hope we resolved this amicably and put us on more solid footing for the future with rulings or issues.

Also, to swalk... I always appreciate comments and suggestions about refinement for the league. I crave them actually, because for so long we never allowed the community to really have an opportunity to voice their opinions. They will always be listened to and considered, even if no action is taken. It's particularly why I opened up feedback threads on almost every single major decision I've had to make for the league. Seedings, rules, the balance, etc.

What I don't appreciate is how you've kind of attempted to stick your finger into every aspect of the league where you've thought I've done some wrong. I'm not even sure if it's for the benefit of the league or a personal vendetta or something entirely else. Pointing a finger is fine. Publicly, even. But it feels like you're making mountains out of molehills and just nitpicking at a lot of minor and inconsequential points. If you really cared about the league as much as you say and really just craved creating construction criticism for me, you wouldn't have abdicated your responsibilities in the middle of last season when your team disbanded and you "lost any interest" in continuing with the league and were mostly gone or quiet until you joined a team again. It's pretty comical and exasperating. This probably deserves a PM, but since you've brought most of your complaints publicly, here it shall be.

Thanks for your posts.

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ritual

The Boys

Extra-Staff: NYC server NA Ombudsmen
Posts: 47
Location: United States of America
Joined: 15 November 2012

thread was tl;dr and I don't really care about the drama or really know anyone involved, but scheduling with Australian teams has historically been a pain in the ass for everyone. And the new scheduling rules might effect them more harshly than they do americans and europeans.

I know in the past when I've been scheduled with australian/korean teams, both teams were forced to play at really strange hours and the matches sort of just happened when they could happen, we were never able to pin a schedule down. I mean shit I run on Pacific time so I'm arguably the closest time zone to them, and normal PST playtimes are right in the middle of the AUS workday. Normal EST playtimes are even earlier.. and CEST is pretty much the middle of the night.

Not saying you should change the rules or anything, but the leniency that was allowed in previous seasons always seemed acceptable to me.

Sure, there were matches that got played super late in the season and stuff... but isn't it preferable that matches actually get played?

Forfeits just suck for everyone involved. Unless your team is a bunch of pussies who enjoy taking a forfeit win just to move up in the rankings.

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swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

@Zefram First off, I do not have any kind of vendetta against anyone. Especially not you. Remember, I actually recommended you as my successor when I quit NS2 for almost half a year, not knowing if I would come back at all. But I came back because I missed the game and the community.

It's funny that you think I got something against you even though I've stated before that I don't. It's even more funny that you try to make this personal by sending personal attacks my way, because that is not what is coming your way. I actually care about the league. I was a big part of bringing this baby up, with respect of what (E)NSL was back in the days even though I was never really a part of the old NS1 league. This is something you lack greatly in my opinion.

Some of that was transfering some of the old NS1 rules to NS2, so the oldschoolers still somewhat felt like it was "home". That includes even the smallest things like the rules deciding that the first team on the match page starts as marines etc. Yes, alot of other things changed and I am not happy with every decision I've made(or didn't make), we all make mistakes but there is no reason for you to gloat about it or make up stories about it. I did take feedback and listen to it, I might not have created a million threads like you have done but that does not mean I did not take feedback from the community. I have often(some might even say too often) made changes from feedback with immediate effect. Even with the smallest issues that were brought to my attention.

I point out things that can create issues and I firmly believe that the points mentioned in this post should still be included in the rules. I don't point them out to annoy you, I do it to notify you about potential problems. Any potential problem should be dealt with in the rules, not just be dismissed like it does not matter. Even the smallest things matter, even if you feel they don't affect you. I've experienced countless matches decided by the psycological effect of losing the first round. And I think we can all agree that the game is not 100% balanced and probably never will be.

All your posts show me is that you despise me and take my notifications as annoying complaints that should be dismissed due to the fact. This just shows what kind of person you are and to be honest I now kind of regret recommending you for the position. Partly due to this and due to the countless complaints I've gotten about you from around the community to which I had chosen to be neutral about. I don't want to go into further detail about that, people can post themselves if they still have these issues.

I do however appreciate that you came to your senses and allowed the teams to play their game like they should. Now you just need to get off your high horse, stop being an asshole to people that are trying to help you out and then realize that small things does matter, at least a little bit. They are not grave issues, but they still matter enough to have rules about it, that is why they were there in the first place. That stuff also helps new teams understand the procedures of the games, something that you have chosen to further emphasize as per the mission statement(which I like alot) but now seem to ignore.

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Wob

B L I N K

Posts: 296
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Joined: 18 January 2013

swalk says

@Zefram
All your posts show me is that you despise me and take my notifications as annoying complaints that should be dismissed due to the fact. This just shows what kind of person you are and to be honest I now kind of regret recommending you for the position. Partly due to this and due to the countless complaints I've gotten about you from around the community to which I had chosen to be neutral about. I don't want to go into further detail about that, people can post themselves if they still have these issues.

Don't go holding Zefram hostage because of your recommendation. You know the responsibilities just as well as Zefram and must understand that some people are almost impossible to please, and definitely everyone is impossible to please at the same time.

If in a PM he dismisses it, and you still feel like it's a big enough deal to warrent with, put up a forum post. However to call it a "protest post" is a bit childish. You could have left that bit out and still had a constructive discussion thread like with pelagir. Then you could come up with a consensus, properly see the scale of the problem, and address it appropriately.

Zefram is a volunteer and has to deal with many things. It's a little ridiculous that he can't say "No" to something, which imo is a little small problem like "What is a match".

swalk says

I do however appreciate that you came to your senses and allowed the teams to play their game like they should. Now you just need to get off your high horse, stop being an asshole to people that are trying to help you out and then realize that small things does matter, at least a little bit.

Come on man... he admits a mistake and allows an exception because of appropriate discussion in a forum thread, and you're still being rude. Have some grace...

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Revilo

Vexta

Posts: 27
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Joined: 16 March 2013

It shouldn't be that hard to schedule a game in a 2-week period, yes. But there will always be cases where, for whatever reason, two teams who want to play can't in the 2-week period, but can at some point later on.

What, exactly, do we gain from not allowing them to play?

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psico

Posts: 19
Location: Gelsenkirchen!, Germany
Joined: 25 April 2012

I rememeber the game that needed to play saturday but we give it a forfeit because we have a rl and that is always the first for the most people. For me its easy: if you cant play that time you cant! (We play for money guys so please play your games or forfeit thx ;D) and i agree with swalk about the first round. But its funny that if we lose the first round normally we win all the other (i said the most wipped;D)

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swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

Wob says

..

I am not holding anyone hostage, I simply point out that I recommended him and that means something. I would not have done it otherwise, I actually liked the guy and his work. But now that he attacks me personally I don't really know about that anymore. It is not childish to protest about something that you care about, that is what adults do when they disagree in a democracy. You will learn when you grow up Wob ;) It would have been childish if I made a simple rage post with personal attacks, but I did not. I actually start the topic out with giving him a pad on the shoulder to ease into the problem.

He did on the other hand attack me personally, and yeah, I made a "return to sender" on that one, which I don't like doing because it's just as childish as attacking me personally in the first place. But I simply can't stay nice to people that throw mud in my face like that, I throw it back at them. I usually advocate of turning the other cheek, but some people need that mud thrown back at them to understand that they are not worth more or better than others.

I am not saying he should agree with everything or please me or anyone else for that matter, I know I didn't. But those rules were there for a reason. The fact that he does not agree with the reasoning behind them does not make them irrelevant, which is why I made the post. Yeah, it is a small loophole, but a small loophole is still a loophole. And that should be fixed asap, before the problem becomes apparent in the matches.

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Wob

B L I N K

Posts: 296
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Joined: 18 January 2013

swalk says

I am not holding anyone hostage

Actually, you're right...

swalk says

I simply point out that I recommended him

and again, correct.

swalk says

and that means something.

But you're wrong here. It means nothing. You don't hold him hostage because you don't have any power. You just attempt to exert influence over Zefram to implement rules.

Sure rules that perhaps should be there, but the manner of which you do it is childish. Protests generally come after discussion and a failure to reach reasonable grounds of compromise. Discussions are what adults do first, swalk. Protesting first without trying to talk about issues is comparable to a child throwing his toys out of his pram.

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keLLa

Turkey

Posts: 35
Location: Lao People's Democratic Republic
Joined: 16 January 2010

Protests generally come after discussion and a failure to reach reasonable grounds of compromise.

Wob: Check forfeited match comments and match videos... You can find enough discussions... If people that contribute to ensl say something, it means something even it is childish.

I think Zefram is doing a great job but he is too close to criticism. Especially on rules. Most of the time he is taking personally and stick to wrong decisions.

Forfeits should be the last call if you go international... If both teams want to play, let them play without time limitations... If both teams have part in forfeit, let them play till the end of group matches or make the score 0-0...

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Wob

B L I N K

Posts: 296
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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LakeL says

Wob: Check forfeited match comments and match videos... You can find enough discussions... If people that contribute to ensl say something, it means something even it is childish.

Coinflip for side and which map is played in a season league game is minor stuff, not previously discussed unreasonably.

People can discuss things and want to make change for the better of the community on forums. People can also bitch and whine and subtly jibe at each other. People can do both. Are these constructive uses of the forums? One is, one isn't.

We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behaviour

Zefram prioritises things in his mind to best suit the community. If he doesn't think something needs addressing, he won't act on it because he can do something else (READ: As a volunteer, he also has a real life). So when his behaviour seems that he is dismissive, it might be because he intends to do something else which is good.

Zefram is a person.
His intentions are for the best of the league.
Zefram also makes mistakes like other people.
The mistake was forfeiting the envy vs oF match.
Argh anger anger! How dare he stick to his original rules!
He made up for it by providing an exception to the Envy vs oF match, thereby admitting his mistake.
Argh! Finally idiot, took you long enough to realise!

No mercy, no forgiveness. A truly thankless job. (Or perhaps a little thanks with a whole load of shit faced abuse shoved at him)

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keLLa

Turkey

Posts: 35
Location: Lao People's Democratic Republic
Joined: 16 January 2010

Argh! Finally idiot, took you long enough to realise! -> If people that contribute to ensl say something, it means something even it is childish.

---

This is for future drama. Not for forfeited matches. Some of them are a little bit exaggerated, but it is better this way. Please take this as a pre-warning. I feel shitstorms are coming.

Zefram: Please be humble and don't take criticisms personally. Rules are important but there should be a human factor in them. Don't make rash decisions if you will be the only decision-maker. Don't wait for drama before you change your rash decisions. Listen to people for real, not for show. Most importantly give referees space for making their own decisions.

A quote from last year...
jiriki: @swalk I'm not putting this here as a stab at you, and apparently the NSL ran really well. I'm really glad to hear that. You also did a lot of great work. I'm just saying this as a pre-warning. There have been much worse shitstorms in ENSL for much sillier reasons.

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Suggestions:
1. You can elaborate the rules. There is no harm in editing the rules with details. I agree with swalk. It's more of a "better safe than sorry" scenario.
2. Arrange a referee meeting and tell them the rules. Discuss the details, so you can minimize the differences in decisions.
3. We can open a discussion on forum for forfeits. As least a rule can be written with participation of the community.

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Wob

B L I N K

Posts: 296
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Joined: 18 January 2013

LakeL says

Argh! Finally idiot, took you long enough to realise! -> If people that contribute to ensl say something, it means something even it is childish.

And perhaps this is something people themselves could look at and fix before posting. It's pointless and petty. More often than not, the problems are created by the community themselves and not the admins. But fuck the admins, right?

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swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

Wob says

Zefram prioritises things in his mind to best suit the community. If he doesn't think something needs addressing, he won't act on it because he can do something else (READ: As a volunteer, he also has a real life). So when his behaviour seems that he is dismissive, it might be because he intends to do something else which is good.

Zefram is a person.
His intentions are for the best of the league.
Zefram also makes mistakes like other people.
The mistake was forfeiting the envy vs oF match.
Argh anger anger! How dare he stick to his original rules!
He made up for it by providing an exception to the Envy vs oF match, thereby admitting his mistake.
Argh! Finally idiot, took you long enough to realise!

No mercy, no forgiveness. A truly thankless job. (Or perhaps a little thanks with a whole load of shit faced abuse shoved at him)

It's not like I am asking Zefram to work for hours, I actually did most of the job, so it was less work for him. Because I know exactly how much you have to deal with in his position and any help he gets will take off of that workload and make it easier for him.

If you take a notice, he shitfaced me first. What did you expect me to do? Smile and wave?

Wob says

But you're wrong here. It means nothing. You don't hold him hostage because you don't have any power. You just attempt to exert influence over Zefram to implement rules.

Sure rules that perhaps should be there, but the manner of which you do it is childish. Protests generally come after discussion and a failure to reach reasonable grounds of compromise. Discussions are what adults do first, swalk. Protesting first without trying to talk about issues is comparable to a child throwing his toys out of his pram.

That is far fetched dude. Cool down on the conspiracy theories.
Zefram accuse me of having a vendetta against him.
I'm saying that is silly because I recommended him. It means something when I say it does. Don't be a fool.
I am asking to reinstate rules that have been around (E)NSL for ages and have always worked. Right now it's open season with the group play matches.

I discussed it with Zefram and then brought it to the forums after he disagrees with me. All I am looking for is peoples opinion about the subjects I brought up. Is it worth to spend a few seconds to put it back into the rules?

The protest thing was meant pretty lighthearted, you should know me well enough to know that. Subtle trolling, big deal. Seems like you just like to stir the pot for no reason.

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Decoy

Posts: 73
Location: United States of America
Joined: 6 October 2012

Swalk, I found your initial post to sound rather aggressive and combative.

If you felt that Zefram did not think that something like deciding which side would be marines first warranted a coin flip, it would be much more professional and productive to simply start a discussion about it and ask everyone's opinion on the rule or lack thereof. You really don't need to include how you perceived Zefram's reaction to you bringing it to him over PM. If enough people had truly felt that the issue needed to be addressed and responded to the thread, then it would be clear that it did warrant a rule change.

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swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

Decoy says

Swalk, I found your initial post to sound rather aggressive and combative.

If you felt that Zefram did not think that something like deciding which side would be marines first warranted a coin flip, it would be much more professional and productive to simply start a discussion about it and ask everyone's opinion on the rule or lack thereof. You really don't need to include how you perceived Zefram's reaction to you bringing it to him over PM. If enough people had truly felt that the issue needed to be addressed and responded to the thread, then it would be clear that it did warrant a rule change.

Well, guess you just don't know me well enough then. Hi, I'm swalk, I always do some lighthearted trolling in hopes of making people laugh. I don't really care if I sound professional when conveying my points about the rules in an amateur league.

If you took the time to read, you would know I don't want coinflips for group play games. I want the first team on the match page to start off as marines in the group play, like it has been in previous seasons and all the way back to NS1.

I would on the other hand actually want to get rid of the deciding factor of coinflips entirely(except for deciding which team gets the first pick(map or race) in the finals/bronze games, semifinals have this coinflip decided by group play results, or used-to at least), like I initially did with the summer cup and season 3(before Zefram changed it back to "best of X rounds" from "best of X maps"). But it seems people lack commitment to play their matches until they are decided so they would rather have them decided by coinflips than have longer games when needed. Note that this is only for the playoffs.

To me it seems like it is warrented. The people that actually have taken stance on the subject instead of simply nitpicking my way of conveying it, seem to agree with me. On this note I would like to say I have no influence over psico in this matter, he found the topic here like the rest of you, just in case anyone had that wild conspiracy in mind.

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Wob

B L I N K

Posts: 296
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Joined: 18 January 2013

Decoy says

If you felt that Zefram did not think that something like deciding which side would be marines first warranted a coin flip, it would be much more professional and productive to simply start a discussion about it and ask everyone's opinion on the rule or lack thereof.

You really don't need to include how you perceived Zefram's reaction to you bringing it to him over PM.

If enough people had truly felt that the issue needed to be addressed and responded to the thread, then it would be clear that it did warrant a rule change.

Someone who understands how feedback topics should be made! It might also be noted that the efficacy of instating new rules might increase without aggressive subtext.

swalk says

Well, guess you just don't know me well enough then. Hi, I'm swalk, I always do some lighthearted trolling in hopes of making people laugh.

Making people laugh at the expense of volunteers' work is pretty despicable and is more on the side of douchebagery rather than light trolling.

swalk says

I don't really care if I sound professional when conveying my points about the rules in an amateur league.

But of course lets first wipe out the significant psychological advantage of starting marines first via rule insertion instead of sportmanship in an amateur, NOT professional, league. (Sarcasm)

Rumour had it Zefram was close to just quitting altogether after the ns2wc because of the amount of abuse he received and lack of faith in the community. The simple fact is, he is the best thing we have to run the league and he's doing a top job of it. Some mistakes are made in the eyes of the community and he's taken the time to correct some of them he deemed worthy of correcting and admit his mistake. People need to realise this and take some food for thought because Zefram could just do what swalk did and walk away. Then we could be left for shit.

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swalk

Xeon

Posts: 908
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 9 May 2010

Wob says

Someone who understands how feedback topics should be made! It might also be noted that the efficacy of instating new rules might increase without aggressive subtext.

You don't get it do you? I was not agressive in my initial post. Even if it is percieved as agressive, that should not make it a reason to dismiss it. If it does, that means there is a bad leadership.

Wob says

Making people laugh at the expense of volunteers' work is pretty despicable and is more on the side of douchebagery rather than light trolling.

I try to make people laugh at all expenses, even my own. If people can't handle that, then it is their problem. It's healthy to have some fun.

Wob says

But of course lets first wipe out the significant psychological advantage of starting marines first via rule insertion instead of sportmanship in an amateur, NOT professional, league. (Sarcasm)

Even if it's an amateur league, the games are still serious. That is also part of the reason why it is relevant. If every player in the league did not have a prefered side to play, then it would not matter. But that is not the case.

Wob says

Rumour had it Zefram was close to just quitting altogether after the ns2wc because of the amount of abuse he received and lack of faith in the community. The simple fact is, he is the best thing we have to run the league and he's doing a top job of it. Some mistakes are made in the eyes of the community and he's taken the time to correct some of them he deemed worthy of correcting and admit his mistake. People need to realise this and take some food for thought because Zefram could just do what swalk did and walk away. Then we could be left for shit.

It's hardly a large task to reinstate a few old(and relevant) rules into the new ruleset. Sure, he generally does a pretty great job, much better than I did at many points, I admit that. But that does not mean we should not call out the points where we think he is wrong. That is not abuse, that is for the better of the league. That's part of the role he has and he should not take it personal.
I did not just walk out, I gave blind a decent amount of time to find a replacement for me before I quit my position. I'm sure Zefram would do the same if he is thinking of quitting. Someone else who feels up for the task would just take over. No biggie.

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Argosh

RadicaL

Posts: 59
Location: Munich, Germany
Joined: 13 January 2012

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League rules (exploits etc.)

swalk

Pelargir

nezz

sublime

swalk

Pelargir

swalk

joshhhy

bonage

Seb

Zefram

nezz

Zefram

ritual

swalk

Wob

Revilo

psico

swalk

Wob

keLLa

Wob

keLLa

Wob

swalk

Decoy

swalk

Wob

swalk

Argosh

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