Balance Mod - Third Iteration

NotDragon
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27 August 2014 - 00:24 CEST
That looks to be a bug in vanilla caused by a railgun dealing friendly fire damage and killing an exo, which isn't something that is normally possible.
swalk
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28 August 2014 - 16:05 CEST
rantology says
(no more experimental stuff being thrown in).

That's something at least. Now the gap isn't getting bigger, hopefully.
But why not decrease the gap? Why do you want to keep these experimental non-vanilla features that are already there? In my opinion, features that are not in vanilla should not be in official matches. Balance changes are great however.

Close the gap before the season begins, put the non-vanilla features in a seperate mod or only make them accessable in the compmod by a special console command. Please don't keep non-official features in officials. Pretty please. You can easily re-enable them if they somehow get adopted into vanilla. It seems to be preventing
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
rantology
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28 August 2014 - 16:19 CEST
swalk says
rantology says
(no more experimental stuff being thrown in).

That's something at least. Now the gap isn't getting bigger, hopefully.
But why not decrease the gap? Why do you want to keep these experimental non-vanilla features that are already there? In my opinion, features that are not in vanilla should not be in official matches. Balance changes are great however.

Close the gap before the season begins, put the non-vanilla features in a seperate mod or only make them accessable in the compmod by a special console command. Please don't keep non-official features in officials. Pretty please. You can easily re-enable them if they somehow get adopted into vanilla.


The changes are quite minimal at the moment (compared to what they were, especially pre-268). The most notable differences from vanilla being : The HMG, the FT and spores (maybe the shade upgrades being split as well, if you want to be generous). That's it. The other changes are purely value tweaks and your average player would likely not notice them. Most of iteration 2 was just adopted into vanilla, and you never know. Maybe in the future some of iteration 3 might be, too, if it is successful.

I know there is a portion of the community that was against adding bigger changes to cmod, but there was also a larger portion that did want to see things tried- so we took the plunge, and here we are.

As to what to include in the season or not, that's zefram's department.
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28 August 2014 - 22:42 CEST
rantology says
The changes are quite minimal at the moment

Sure the vanilla patch made the gap smaller, but to say that the changes are minimal at the moment is quite laughable. Especially since you listed them afterwards. Those changes mean that we aren't playing NS2. We are playing an entirely seperate mod. Well, consider my post a pledge to zefram then.

I personally think it is currently preventing some teams from signing up for the season and that is pretty damn bad if that is true. It might also be the lack of advertising. There is nothing to be found about season 5 on the official ns2 homepage other than a lonely forum post in the competetive forums.
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
rantology
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29 August 2014 - 00:03 CEST
swalk says
rantology says
The changes are quite minimal at the moment

Sure the vanilla patch made the gap smaller, but to say that the changes are minimal at the moment is quite laughable. Especially since you listed them afterwards. Those changes mean that we aren't playing NS2. We are playing an entirely seperate mod. Well, consider my post a pledge to zefram then.

I personally think it is currently preventing some teams from signing up for the season and that is pretty damn bad if that is true. It might also be the lack of advertising. There is nothing to be found about season 5 on the official ns2 homepage other than a lonely forum post in the competetive forums.


Tomatoes, Tamatoes.... To me they are minimal because they take elements of the game that you 100% never saw because they are useless, and simply makes them an option. So at worst you might see more varied games.. But of course if you have a zero tolerance attitude towards change, then the mod will be quite bad in your view regardless of what's in it, which sucks... but again it seemed like the majority of the community endorsed these kinds of additions and that is why we kept going in this direction.

If teams are not signing up as a direct result of this version of the mod then that's quite regrettable. If it's true.
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30 August 2014 - 15:05 CEST
Current compmod version broke the buy icons.
ritual
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30 August 2014 - 17:22 CEST
How many iterations are you planning on doing? Iteration 3 is like what, the 4th or 5th "comp/balance" patch we've had?

It kinda just seems like we're cutting the game open and poking around its insides for shits and giggles at this point... and it's making scrims a pain in the ass. Constantly having to reschedule cause of bugs, or people getting dc'd and not allowed back in because the mod was updated, etc.

The buy icon bug was one that delayed a scrim (or maybe pug icr) for awhile the other day, Allegedly it was fixed, but it sounds like its back D:
rantology
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30 August 2014 - 17:38 CEST
The icons are broken in 268, and we have to wait for 269 to get them working properly... We tried to add proper HMG icons but something is messed up with the icon modding in 268. 269 is going to be next week and it should fix the problem. For now Dragon released a quick fix to use temporary HMG icons it looks like.


@ritual there is no more planned iterations, however there will always be updates to fix bugs or tweak small things. Apologies if one of them messed with your scrim schedule... we broke the icons and were trying to get it fixed, it was unintentional.
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30 August 2014 - 20:10 CEST
It would be nice to have walking ability, cause almost every time after i finish sprinting i have to crouch to actually make sprinting animation stop, because it doesn't stop otherwise,

Also crouching can ruin aim, because there are situations when you wanna move without sound (or stop after sprinting), and you have to crouch and while crouching you can't shoot because there is some boxes or barriers in front of your face, or you wanna approach some vent while being able to see whats inside of it, but now you can't, you have either run to it making sound, or crouch without making any sound but also without line of sight on the inside of the vent. For example skylights/x vent on jambi.

Also walking speed can be slower then usual running but faster then crouching.

You can use CapsLock key to walk.

Please consider.

P.S. Also it would be nice to see something like sprint for skulks, cause its very hard to gain acceleration without walljumps as skulk sometimes :)
rantology
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30 August 2014 - 22:21 CEST
From my understanding adding a walk key would not be possible, really, You'd have to re-purpose one of the existing keybindings. You cannot add additional keybindings because the game is already at the limit of 31.
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30 August 2014 - 23:39 CEST
rantology says
From my understanding adding a walk key would not be possible, really, You'd have to re-purpose one of the existing keybindings. You cannot add additional keybindings because the game is already at the limit of 31.


So maybe CDT can add few empty key bindings for user-defined functions?
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31 August 2014 - 17:55 CEST
Best idea ever: replace sprint with walk
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1 September 2014 - 08:57 CEST
Was there a discussion yesterday about the latest changes? Wasn't able to be online during the weekend to check about of this.

And heck, at the moment Eissfeldt's suggestion to replace sprint with walk seems tempting. :/
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1 September 2014 - 13:03 CEST
I guess what I post now is commonly known already but for those who did not notice:

Umbra causes crashes in compmod atm. Don't use it until it gets fixed (it crashes for marines aswell as for aliens).

Saw 6 people crashing yesterday because a lerk used umbra in hub
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1 September 2014 - 13:26 CEST
Mephilles says
I guess what I post now is commonly known already but for those who did not notice:

Umbra causes crashes in compmod atm. Don't use it until it gets fixed (it crashes for marines aswell as for aliens).

Saw 6 people crashing yesterday because a lerk used umbra in hub


I'm pretty sure that this isn't caused by compmod or ns2+.
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1 September 2014 - 14:36 CEST
oh right it happened to me in pub once. ok not a compmod issue then. Then lets hope it's getting fixed in 269
ritual
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2 September 2014 - 08:37 CEST
rantology says

@ritual there is no more planned iterations, however there will always be updates to fix bugs or tweak small things. Apologies if one of them messed with your scrim schedule... we broke the icons and were trying to get it fixed, it was unintentional.


oh i know i didn't intend that to be a personal attack or anything, you guys have been busting your ass and I definitely appreciate it
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4 September 2014 - 19:51 CEST
rantology says
Tomatoes, Tamatoes.... To me they are minimal because they take elements of the game that you 100% never saw because they are useless, and simply makes them an option. So at worst you might see more varied games.. But of course if you have a zero tolerance attitude towards change, then the mod will be quite bad in your view regardless of what's in it, which sucks... but again it seemed like the majority of the community endorsed these kinds of additions and that is why we kept going in this direction.

If teams are not signing up as a direct result of this version of the mod then that's quite regrettable. If it's true.

Wtf.. It seems you didn't really understand anything I was saying, like at all. My turn to twist your words: So HMG was useless before and was made useful by the mod?

I am not against change, I am against making NS2 something else than NS2. Number modifications and changes to how vanilla abilites work are fine, as long as it's the same game in it's essence. But when you go ahead and do something like bring in a an entirely new weapon, then you screw balance over and are basicly doing the EXACT opposite of balancing the game. Adding new stuff that isn't going into vanilla is just a bad idea. No matter how you put it, it splits the waters and we need the ocean back.

Trust me when I say that I appreciate all your time investments, but we currently only have 25 teams signed up for the season and the signups close in about 10 days. So this should be of great concern for the league. Else you can just always keep up with the seperation and let the community slowly wither. It's way too hard to get into competetive right now as the mod currently stands. That means you only have people leaving and no one coming in, in theory, but there are always exceptions. I believe that this, combined with the lack of advertisement is at fault for the few signups. Last year when signups closed we had twice the amount of signups we have at this writing moment and then even more teams for season 4. Season 5 is currently looking to be a sad season with a 50% decline in amount of teams. Hopefully something will happen to stop this from becoming true.
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
rantology
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4 September 2014 - 20:29 CEST
swalk says
rantology says
Tomatoes, Tamatoes.... To me they are minimal because they take elements of the game that you 100% never saw because they are useless, and simply makes them an option. So at worst you might see more varied games.. But of course if you have a zero tolerance attitude towards change, then the mod will be quite bad in your view regardless of what's in it, which sucks... but again it seemed like the majority of the community endorsed these kinds of additions and that is why we kept going in this direction.

If teams are not signing up as a direct result of this version of the mod then that's quite regrettable. If it's true.

Wtf.. It seems you don't really understand what I am saying, like at all. My turn to twist your words: So HMG was useless before and was made useful?

I am not against change, I am against making NS2 something else than NS2. Number modifications and changes to how vanilla abilites work are fine, as long as it's the same game in it's essence. But when you go ahead and do something like bring in a an entirely new weapon, then you screw balance over and are basicly doing the opposite of balancing the game. Adding new stuff that isn't going into vanilla is a bad idea. It splits the waters and we need the ocean back.


Swalk if you can definitively show that the majority of the community shares this opinion then we can all go back to playing revision 2. That's how compmod has always been handled- whatever the majority is OK with is generally what we go with. There was calls for feedback on all of this months before implementation and there's been threads, meetings and countless conversations held since r3's release. Just recently the vanilla game itself adopted many of the changes from compmod- even some from r3. The gap between vanilla and compmod has closed significantly since 268 and one can hope it will continue to do so in future patches.

If you have a specific point of feedback about the HMG or anything else that is "screwing over balance" please elaborate and it will be looked at. There are no plans for any major changes to revision 3 at this time. If you want to play the vanilla game, you are free to do so. If you want the vanilla game to be played in the NSL season 5, that's a whole different animal- you're going to need the backing of the majority of the competitive community to get it changed.
swalk
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4 September 2014 - 21:00 CEST
rantology says
Swalk if you can definitively show that the majority of the community shares this opinion then we can all go back to playing revision 2. That's how compmod has always been handled- whatever the majority is OK with is generally what we go with. There was calls for feedback on all of this months before implementation and there's been threads, meetings and countless conversations held since r3's release. Just recently the vanilla game itself adopted many of the changes from compmod- even some from r3. The gap between vanilla and compmod has closed significantly since 268 and one can hope it will continue to do so in future patches.

If you have a specific point of feedback about the HMG or anything else that is "screwing over balance" please elaborate and it will be looked at. There are no plans for any major changes to revision 3 at this time. If you want to play the vanilla game, you are free to do so. If you want the vanilla game to be played in the NSL season 5, that's a whole different animal- you're going to need the backing of the majority of the competitive community to get it changed.


You still don't comprehend anything I am saying, but whatever, I am about to give up trying. Like 50% of the community have already done. I can't prove anything, but I know that there are many in the community that don't bother posting their opinions because whatever the balance mod team agree on internally, is what becomes reality. That group consists of very few people and most of them want NS1 back and therefore support the idea of NS1 implementations into NS2. That people are calling it "titus mod" is not unfamiliar to me. I would personally prefer that NS2 felt more like NS1, exactly like you, but I am strongly against splitting the waters. Other people opposed the mod to begin with, but have slowly faded away because they were not listened to initially. Well consider yourself warned. At this rate there might not be a sufficient amount of teams for season 6. You need a steady influx of players to keep the game alive, you are blocking that influx and pushing people away at the moment and have been for quite a while.

And I don't know why you keep on thinking that I want the entire mod gone and want to play vanilla. That is just beginning to seem silly by now. I want a few things changed in the mod so we rebuild the bridge between vanilla and the compmod. The bridge is currently blown up, Tanya is standing on the other side, laughing. Red alert reference, for those scratching their heads.

I have a point of feedback for HMG, remove it. It does not belong.
http://www.youtube.com/user/swalken/videos
NotDragon
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4 September 2014 - 21:44 CEST
If you take everything out of context, then you can easily make the smallest of things seem like a giant problem. NS2 player counts are probably at their lowest levels ever, with easily a 3rd to half the average players when the S4 signups started. Consider that was also following the WC and the humble bundle sale which both brought a massive influx of players AND interest. It doesn't surprise me in the smallest amount that the team signups are significantly lower, and honestly I think that the comp mod (and now that many of the changes are part of vanilla) are some of the reasons why interest has been maintained. I have no doubt that there are people who disagree with some of the changes; it’s just simply not possible to please everyone. But I have not seen anyone who thinks that comp mod overall is hurting the size or commitment of the competitive scene. Honestly looking over the changes in R3 from vanilla, the only major change is the addition of the HMG... And considering much of the feedback on it has been that it’s not very useful, I fail to see how such an addition makes the comp/public learning curve significantly steeper.

In the end, it comes down to what the community wants. There is no point to us developing and furthering a mod which hurts the community, or doesn’t have a positive impact. If what you say is actually true, I seriously question why this has never been brought up before, especially with so many open channels for communication.

For anyone that may share an opinion with Swalk, I welcome you to come forward and discuss why you think comp mod negatively impacts the scene, and what changes (even if its all the changes) you think are the primary contributors. Nothing can change if the problems remain hidden and unknown. While I cannot guarantee that every post or every issue will trigger changes, it’s important to make the post regardless. Every post is read and many times yields a perspective on things that can and will help future changes.
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5 September 2014 - 14:17 CEST
I don't really want to step into this argument too much and also don't want to come across as too negative, but I'd like to throw in my support for at least some of what swalk said, in that it has so often felt like community feedback on the forums hasn't been strongly considered, with changes being made despite heavy opposition or reasoned dissent. Active discussion about balance and features is the sort of thing I'd normally be all over, and I was at the start, as I'm passionate about game design and have a lot of experience in it. However, when it feels so much like we're just along for the ride, it doesn't seem worth the effort. We have to work hard to convince the team of things and gather majority support (what does that look like, anyway, and why does a full majority have to be unhappy before it matters?), while we're told to have patience with changes and play with them for a long time before deciding we dislike them. I'm all for games having a centralized vision and not being designed by committee, but this is a game we're all invested in already and the mod was pitched to us for our approval and not the other way around. It's for reasons like these that my posts now are more about how things are run than the game design issues that I actually care about.

This isn't me saying we should revert a full revision, which seems like an unnecessarily all-or-nothing approach. I do think the bulk of the changes have been good, I appreciate that there are players willing to put forth the effort to improve the game and put up with the resulting criticism, and I like that the teamspeak meetings help to level the playing field a bit and enable people to be better heard. Unfortunately, those meetings feel like only a partial solution to a communication problem that I believe has plagued this project, and I feel like there's nothing I can do about changes I can't stand. I find it hard to be enthusiastic enough about what I expect to be a pointless discussion to actually put the necessary effort into it.
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5 September 2014 - 15:26 CEST
I don't feel like the... issue? needs to be this complex. If anyone has a specific suggestion (read: something other than a general complaint) please post them. With details.

I understand the viewpoints both of you have, Swalk and Fiskbit. But I do not understand what you are asking to be done about it or even what the exact issues you seem to be upset about are. Your concerns are valid but they lack specifics and more importantly, they lack proposed solutions.

Example:

NO: Compmod is killing ns2 because no one listens to feedback.
YES: I think the situation could be improved if X change was made and Y person did this differently. Here's why this is better than the current method.

Also if you have something more you want to discuss in more detail you are free to hit up any member of the balance team via steam or PMs.
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5 September 2014 - 18:38 CEST
Maybe you should seek to obtain a representative feedback from each division to begin with.
I'm not very involved in this kind of threads because i'm not fluent in english and i don't believe the CompMod team is looking for feedback in other languages (but I might be wrong on this one), but when we discussed about CompMod with my fellow friends, we felt that the last modificiations brought balance to the Premier's div and Divison 1, we've played countless games this summer in Div3/Div4 and some in Div2 level and 70% of the time, Alien teams win.

Regarding previous changes, I personally think that the nerf of "silent" lerk is totally unnecessary. Then, i would have preferred that you increase the lerk armor with carapace instead of reducing lerk base armor by 5.
Regen: Instead of cutting regeneration during the combat timer, i would go for a 50% reduction of healing from Regeneration during this same interval.
Muccous shoud give more shield (like 15% to 20% maybe?) atm it's a very light shield considering its cost.

Reduce Marine sprint by .25 speed modification is a little too much considering how fast dropped weapons (on the ground) disppear. Maybe should you increase the weapon lasting delay on the ground by 3-4sec.
I think you should reduce the Flamethrower research cost to 5.
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5 September 2014 - 21:26 CEST
70% of the time, Alien teams win.


I used to play on a team in division 3, and while I agree that there was a high majority of alien wins, I do not think that it warrants any balance changes. From what I observed, in lower divisions, aim is not as good. Aim is VERY important for marines. Teamplay is VERY important for aliens. With players with worse aim, it's easier to have great teamplay than it is to suddenly have fantastic aim. I think lower divisions are still practicing and working on their aim and positioning. If you were to make marines stronger, because of this disadvantage, then you ruin premiere play, where marines will become OP.

Regarding previous changes, I personally think that the nerf of "silent" lerk is totally unnecessary.


Any reason in particular? Lerks were capable of quickly and silently traversing the map, setting up devastating ambushes without even having shade upgrades. Wouldn't this be a needed nerf for the alien side anyway as per the above argument that aliens win 70%?

Now the lerks have to fly slowly in order to be silent, which is more balanced, so they're not capable of covering as much distance as quickly, while silent. It's another dimension of skill for them.

Regen: Instead of cutting regeneration during the combat timer, i would go for a 50% reduction of healing from Regeneration during this same interval.


This would put regen WORSE than vanilla regen, would it not? We would just revert to no one ever using regen, and carapace being used 100%. Watching matches now, I notice there is a time and place for regen and carapace, and all life forms seem to switch back and forth when it is necessary.

Muccous shoud give more shield (like 15% to 20% maybe?) atm it's a very light shield considering its cost.


A small tweak in the + direction might be necessary. Currently it does seem rather trivial, but be careful not to make it so Crag becomes the only hive again.
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5 September 2014 - 21:46 CEST
-
Bias towards aliens, as their champion.
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5 September 2014 - 22:08 CEST
I think balance is in the best place it's ever been at the moment.

I love how shade hive is viable, and starts are not 100% crag hive. I think if we can come up with 1 SMALL change that can give shift hive some more utility so we see it sometimes as first hive...

I love how everyone has difference preferences over cara, regen, silence, aura, or camoflauge. I always get different answers for what people use, and everyone has good reasons for using them.

I love how gorges are useful, and how khammanders can be useful as well.

I love how flashed life forms don't mean GG.

I love the phases of the game, mostly determined by the life form spawn times. I love how aliens can be confined to one hive, but still win the game.

The one negative thing, is that I feel alien side is much more forgiving than marine side. Losing a life form isn't nearly as game shattering as it used to be. Marines leaving a lane open can end the game. Marines losing a key phase gate location can end the game for many reasons: opening up lanes for res to die, aliens IMMEDIATELY take said location and lame it up.

Marines have to do a lot of things right, and almost nothing wrong to keep up with the aliens in a lot of situations. Aliens get a lot more chances to get things right, or try again to win.

One change I (dreadfully) admit could help the situation is reduce the alien team's ability to expand in such a fast pace, in so many directions at once during the mid/late-game. Make it take longer for cysts to grow, and maybe lower cyst HP a TINY bit, and or make cysts that are starving, die faster.

Example (mid/late game): Think tram: marines lose Hub, aliens cyst it and lame it and make it a nightmare for marines before they can respawn, regroup, and try again to take it back. But marines to take any room "owned by aliens"? Marines must win 1 engagement where they much invest 2-3 marines (leaving res lanes open), then if they win the engagement, must decyst it, remove lame, and face a 2nd or even 3rd engagement from a complete alien team before they can get the room, OR have the aliens counter with a base or PG hit, so the territory they gain is cancelled out by territory they lost.

It's much faster for aliens to engage, win, and take control of a room than for marines to do the same against aliens.

There are times when I am alien khammander and I can carry my team too much with aggressive cysting. Any lane left alone for 15 seconds by the marines will be lamed by me. Feathermonster does the same thing. Sure, a lane left alone should be punished, but it needs to take a little longer.

TL:DR - marines are slow, marines are careful. Give them more time to make plays. Increase growth time for cysts, so it takes longer for aliens to expand.
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5 September 2014 - 22:44 CEST
@simba I'm a bit against that change since early game marines can already destroy alien expansion. What about a more endgame oriented change to marines?

I don't mean to repeat myself, but some grenade changes could really solve a versatile set of issues. Maybe decrease the time it takes for nerve gas to start up and extend the time that cluster grenades disable buildings. That would allow marine retakes to be much easier into something like an umbra onos on tram. Single nerve gas grenade on door to push lifeforms away, then open into the room with pulse and cluster grenades to lower the options of the aliens. Also, maybe have reduced research time on catpacks and grenades based on how deep in the game is.
Bias towards aliens, as their champion.
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5 September 2014 - 23:17 CEST
duster says
@simba I'm a bit against that change since early game marines can already destroy alien expansion. What about a more endgame oriented change to marines?


Early game, if the aliens don't defend the expansion, yes, it will die.

I don't mean to repeat myself, but some grenade changes could really solve a versatile set of issues. Maybe decrease the time it takes for nerve gas to start up and extend the time that cluster grenades disable buildings. That would allow marine retakes to be much easier into something like an umbra onos on tram. Single nerve gas grenade on door to push lifeforms away, then open into the room with pulse and cluster grenades to lower the options of the aliens. Also, maybe have reduced research time on catpacks and grenades based on how deep in the game is.


Reduce grenade research time gets a +1. It's very long as is, and doesn't seem to have a purpose for being so long. Make it the same as mines? ? Your ideas offer decent ideas to bunker busting, but I am not talking about just bunker busting - I am talking about the disparity between the time it takes aliens to bust a bunker, and the time it takes marines to in relation to the speed at which aliens can expand, if left unchecked. Marines lose hub, aliens can take hub and ET and repair by the time marines are capable of re-capturing HUB. Then they must spend 2 minutes killing cysts and harvesters.

I am talking a 20% change here to give marines a little breathing room. It won't affect early game much, since aliens shouldn't be blindly trying to expand anyway, since they can't expect to hold it with no lerks. Aliens taking 1 natural and waiting for lerks is fairly standard. They can take 2 naturals if they do well early.
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NSL Mod (Creator) Coder
Posts
64
Location
United States of America
Joined
11 April 2012
5 September 2014 - 23:37 CEST
Regarding communication, things recently have been much less organized than I would hope, but there also is a distinct lack of both support and invested parties. Quite honestly, Rantology alone is responsible for keeping things running as smoothly as they have been. Ideally there would be multiple ways for ideas to be submitted, and discussions could be had without bias or egos. But I think we all know how this works to an extent, and there are certain bad aspects of this that go along with the good. If you have specific suggestions on how to improve this, I am all ears. I cannot speak for anyone else, but I could see a system where things could be presented anonymously to (hopefully) encourage more careful consideration and to temper responses.

Beyond that, I think we want to be careful with alien buffs, especially with how the gameplay works at lower divisions. Aliens have an exaggerated skill:power curve compared to marines, but there are still areas where they lack good options. The trick is to find changes that help reduce the bloat in the middle, where aliens and marines are most imbalance in terms of skill:power that don’t impact the other ends of the scale. This is one of the more difficult aspects of balancing a game like NS2, and is something that we need all the feedback we can get on.

I have an idea on cysts, but I think it’s too late now to make any changes to the mod for the season this big. My idea would have cysts take longer to build (and potentially have less HP) the further they are from a hive. This could allow for potentially even slightly faster initial expansion for aliens, but could help curb the reckless mass expand late game.

For grenades, they are currently something that sees limited use. They could certainly be improved; however we need to avoid making them spamable which can be tricky for AOE denial weapons like gas grenades.
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