NSL

Iots

el'pheer

Posts: 136
Location: Finland
Joined: 7 May 2005

You can prolly find all the "reasons" in this topic alone, but major issue is how little "skill" it takes to silently glide to a marine and kill him before they can react.

And they've been messing with a lot of different things in the past months, and since lerk is the first lifeform it usually has the most impact, thus it scales quite quickly with improvements to alien side. So that's why it's been under so much scrutiny.

But that's a good point about the energy usage, in theory we will be flapping more, and as such the energy usage will be higher, maybe lower the energy cost a bit?

ps. lerk is going to change, this discussion is just to make sure that it's not too much, so could the kiddies cut the crying and at least try to post something usefull, i think we all know who the unreasonable whiners are at this point in the scene, we don't need more indication of it.

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Mephilles

ELOgain

Modder: ns2_docking2
Posts: 331
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next time something is changed I would like to read it in the changelogs. I assume lerk has bben changed a bit now (again) and I don't see anything in the changelogs about it

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bonage

JUST THE TIP

Posts: 34
Location: Australia
Joined: 15 November 2012

so new lerk - some thoughts:

I think the decel. time on the lerk is a little too quick. It just feels a bit unatural for a glide. I get that it's to prevent the silent glide/bite stuff and that its a compromise from the wind tunnel (happy that is gone), but I think it's reducing the effectiveness of aggressive lerk play.

Perhaps increase the 1.25 seconds margin to 1.5 or 2 seconds will help. I get that you don't want lerks perma gliding without consequence, but i still think that a bird glide needs to be just that - a glide. At the moment, it just feels like the lerk is chained to a weight behind it.

Also agree with the comments about celerity on lerks. Having 14 speed is great, but having to constantly flap doesnt warrant getting cele over adren if that speed drops too quickly.

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Cr4zy

SpookerZ

Posts: 195
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Joined: 29 January 2014

I whine once in this thread and everyone complains, I give tons of feedback almost no one bats an eyelid, gj community.

Lerk has gone through 3 major changes in the past month alone, no other lifeform has had 3 major changes like that. The playstyle of a vanilla lerk doesnt fit a jet engine or a retard bird that cant fly.

We're changing the basics of the super weak lifeform to make it nice and obvious to marines while not adjusting its health, meaning its not suited to being heard long before it appears.

Along with the fact we're still throwing drastic changes into a mod weeks before season 5 starts and not discussing them at length before hand or even making it obvious in changelogs so players just get to jump into games to find out their lifeform has changed AGAIN.

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rantology

The Boys

Contributors: Balance-Team
Posts: 124
Location: United States of America
Joined: 28 March 2012

Energy management for the lerk was previously pretty non-existent (pre-umbra)... and even with the more frequent use of flap, I think it's still relatively easy to manage. imo I don't think the lerk would need any energy cost reductions.

In regards to the loss of speed, that is the entire point of this approach to the silent lerk issue. I don't know where people have gotten the idea that the lerk class is supposed to be all about being some kind of silent stealth assassin class, but that is not the case. By having a steeper falloff in speed when gliding, you're forced to flap more often to maintain max speed. And just like any other life form, you will make more noise in doing so. This mechanic is fundamental to the ranged VS melee design in NS2 and it's a very logical step to address this with the lerk. The fade and the skulk have had this issue addressed some time ago, it's frankly quite overdue here.

So in short, the silent glide will not be returning for the lerk. We would love to have feedback on which method is preferred when addressing the issue, which as it stands there are two choices:

1.) Adding a sound to then glide (live previously) and not changing anything about lerk movement
or
2.) Adding a speed falloff to glide, forcing the use of flap more often to maintain max speed, in turn adding a more consistent source of sound to alert marines to the Lerk's presence in a given area (unless you are "sneaking" by gliding at less than 7 speed)

Ryssk says

And @Rantology also mentioned that "many" prem lerks liked the decision, i would like to know how many. Like how many could outvote the most players in ESL about this decision. Is there like a commitée where random suggestions come up in "CDT Private Section" and then gets voted to the "NS2 CDT Public Section" in Trello to get processed with?

By "many" I mean that I have not received a single piece of negative feedback about this change from a single premier player. Many in fact have stated that this change should have been made sooner & they're happy it's finally been done. CompMod is managed 100% independently from the CDT, also. There is no inter-mingling there.

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rantology

The Boys

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Mephilles says

next time something is changed I would like to read it in the changelogs. I assume lerk has bben changed a bit now (again) and I don't see anything in the changelogs about it

I apologize for this, the document has been updated.

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MV

Doctors

Posts: 77
Location: Maldives
Joined: 1 June 2014

rantology says

In regards to the loss of speed, that is the entire point of this approach to the silent lerk issue. I don't know where people have gotten the idea that the lerk class is supposed to be all about being some kind of silent stealth assassin class, but that is not the case.

We think of the lerk this way because it was designed by UWE that way. And it has been a silent stealth assassin for more than two years. Lerk is not a tank, it has little to no health compared to a fade. It's an early lifeform and not designed to be a tank. If you remove their ability to ambush and attack silently at least one of a group of two marines, you at least have a chance of not losing half your health bar before getting a chance to bite. I think removing the combat-regen was enough, but...

Anyway, the gliding sound shouldn't come back, but the loss of speed shouldn't be that strong either. I think this is a good idea (if you definitely want to change the lerk again) but right now the lerk feels really really heavy,

But if you absolutely want to change the lerk, you should go on that way, and erase the gliding sound idea.
Want I don't understand is that the major issue regarding the lerk (that I heard of before the changes) was the regen. It was too strong, when you were engaging and lost half your health or more, you'd just have to sit in a vent for a few seconds and get back to fighting. With the new regen, you're more or less forced to get back to a crag or a hive, so that you're out of the fights for some time and give the marines a chance to push. Never heard a complaint about how the lerk is controlled by the player.

Maybe the gliding speed was too high yeah, but reducing it so much is aweful. Try to work the numbers and find a compromise between old and new gliding and you might have found a good solution

That's my opinion as a comp player entering div 3 this season. (so maybe not important to you guys, better lerks than I am)

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Tinki

We're grumpy

Posts: 63
Location: France
Joined: 9 April 2013

MV says

That's my opinion as a comp player entering div 3 this season. (so maybe not important to you guys, better lerks than I am)

You summarize everything. (and they play fade so they are not better lerks than you :) )

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rantology

The Boys

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You could say that UWE also intentionally designed the silent fade and skulks the way they did. But there's a reason they got fixed- and that was because they are poor gameplay mechanics.

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Tinki

We're grumpy

Posts: 63
Location: France
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rantology says

You could say that UWE also intentionally designed the silent fade and skulks the way they did. But there's a reason they got fixed- and that was because they are poor gameplay mechanics.

So ambushing marines, taking vent and trying to attack marines from behind is a poor mechanics ?
Ok a lot of people are saying that this new lerk sucks but still you want to defend your position. WTF. I thought the compmod was made for and BY the comp community.

It's like your change on shade hive upgrades. Now NO ONE GO FOR SHADE HIVE. Whoa great job.

#NoFeedback

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rantology

The Boys

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Tinki says

So ambushing marines, taking vent and trying to attack marines from behind is a poor mechanics ?

No, I am referring to the period when skulk wall jumping made little to no noise, and fade jumping/blinking made little to no noise - enabling the lifeform to travel at maximum speed with what is essentially the silence upgrade. It promoted poor engagement methods and was generally frustrating to marine players.

Do have a specific suggestion, in regards to shade hive?

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MV

Doctors

Posts: 77
Location: Maldives
Joined: 1 June 2014

rantology says

You could say that UWE also intentionally designed the silent fade and skulks the way they did. But there's a reason they got fixed- and that was because they are poor gameplay mechanics.

Uwe fixed them right ? But they didn't fix the lerk. I wasn't arround there when the game was released so that's an actual question, not sarcasm

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rantology

The Boys

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MV says

rantology says
You could say that UWE also intentionally designed the silent fade and skulks the way they did. But there's a reason they got fixed- and that was because they are poor gameplay mechanics.

Uwe fixed them right ? But they didn't fix the lerk. I wasn't arround there when the game was released so that's an actual question, not sarcasm

I believe the silent lerk glide was something that was on the table but in the end got overlooked in favor of other, more pressing issues at the time.

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Tinki

We're grumpy

Posts: 63
Location: France
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rantology says

No, I am referring to the period when skulk wall jumping made little to no noise, and fade jumping/blinking made little to no noise - enabling the lifeform to travel at maximum speed with what is essentially the silence upgrade. It promoted poor engagement methods and was generally frustrating to marine players.

Do have a specific suggestion, in regards to shade hive?

If you are referring to this why the hell do you use it as an argument for keeping this shitty new lerk?

And specific suggestion ? Reallly? there were a ton of specific suggestion when this happened. why would you take them in consideration now ? I'm going to repeat myself (and others) : maybe put back the silence and camo upgrade together since every good player can spot "not so invisible" skulks, maybe buff the ink cloud for drifters. Again this was on a previous discussion, nothing hapenned.

Oh and "frustrating to marines players". Who cares ???? Metabolize spam is frustrating too. Maybe they need to check their back more often don't you think. And where the fuck are these frustated marine now ? Cause right now all i see i people against this lerk.

This is a joke, rly.

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Golden

Snoofed

Posts: 101
Location: United States of America
Joined: 28 October 2006

@MV

A lot of things were never fixed by UWE because of a lack of time and coding power due to them moving on to another game (Subnautica). This will never be a valid reason for not fixing things that are fundamentally broken in the game.

Regeneration is a separate issue from lerks, with some overlap. It power affected every single lifeform, hence the in-combat regen nerf. This change was not directed solely at lerks.

The issue now is that lerks are too greatly rewarded for low-risk behavior, namely gliding around the map at 10-11 speed and getting 2-3 free bites on marines. With the current changes and with some thinking/adaptation, you can still get these free bites. You just can't rocket around the map making no noise.

@Crazy_

One of the problems is that the NS2 community was so inactive during the summer that changes weren't really being fairly tested. Hence no changes really being made.

Lerk is not a 'super weak lifeform', its arguably the strongest lifeform in the game and remains so even with these changes. I don't know how you're having these energy problems as, after playing with it for 4 hours yesterday, I still have zero problems maintaining energy. You do NOT have to constantly flap with the current mechanic. A single flap every 1-1.5 seconds maintains max speed with nearly zero energy loss.

@Tinki

Having been part of the balance team back when UWE was still running the show, I will tell you that nearly the only reason phantom wasn't broken apart was that UWE didn't want to have 3 upgrades for one hive, and 2 for the others.

Rantology pointed out the fixing of silent skulks/fades because we're dealing with a similar issue - players being rewarded for going faster rather than having some tradeoff. As I stated before, the primary reason that this issue was never addressed by UWE was because of a lack of time and coding power. I think its good that these issues are being addressed now.

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bonage

JUST THE TIP

Posts: 34
Location: Australia
Joined: 15 November 2012

rantology says

Energy management for the lerk was previously pretty non-existent (pre-umbra)... and even with the more frequent use of flap, I think it's still relatively easy to manage. imo I don't think the lerk would need any energy cost reductions.

Energy management has existed, but only in combat situations. I think people will start to notice that they will have to be more energy conscious as they fly to and from combat now. I agree with not reducing energy costs - it actually gives players more incentive to go adren now.

rantology says

In regards to the loss of speed, that is the entire point of this approach to the silent lerk issue. I don't know where people have gotten the idea that the lerk class is supposed to be all about being some kind of silent stealth assassin class, but that is not the case. By having a steeper falloff in speed when gliding, you're forced to flap more often to maintain max speed. And just like any other life form, you will make more noise in doing so. This mechanic is fundamental to the ranged VS melee design in NS2 and it's a very logical step to address this with the lerk. The fade and the skulk have had this issue addressed some time ago, it's frankly quite overdue here.

I think the current v3 iteration of lerk is nearly there - just a few values I would tweak with the rate of decel. that I spoke about early would help.

Also it may not seem like the lerk is supposed to be a silent stealth assassin, but the reality is that's the way many people have played it in certain instances for 2 years, and had a big impact on the early game before the transition to support role.

Tinki says

It's like your change on shade hive upgrades. Now NO ONE GO FOR SHADE HIVE. Whoa great job.

Plenty of teams go shade. I'm surprised more people don't abuse it. Silence + invis combo does not need to come back either.

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AusNS2 Admin

RisingSun

Posts: 57
Location: United States of America
Joined: 25 October 2009

As i stated above, the vanilla lerk is in a good spot imo.

Celerity lerk doesnt benefit at all really and i dont use it at all. It does need some tweaking.

After playing a couple scrims with the new changes i have found energy management the same really and though i felt like i was lerk lifting a gorge everywhere it isnt something i couldnt get used too.

I appreciate the change because it allows me to choose when i make a noise and it isnt based on a speed cap that cant be properly controlled. Plus that flap sound can get lost in some situations as opposed to the jet blast that can be tracked by marines too easily.

Thank you Comp Team for this change.

@Golden @Rantology What is your take on the Celerity issue i mentioned? Is it a problem or do you prefer the slight gains to encourage adren?

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NotDragon

Extra-Staff: NSL Mod (Creator) Coder
Posts: 64
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In case you have ANY doubt over the Lerks intended role -
Versatile support flyer. Can do damage over time with poisonous bite and ranged spikes. Can evolve choking spore cloud and protective umbra.
Description directly from the game. The lerk was never intended to fit a stealth/assassin role, And actually changes were made quite a few times to reduce that ability. Lerk was and always is intended to fit a supportive role.

The only reason this became a problem was that the bite ROF was increased, and by the time the original balance team was able to test those changes we couldn't provide feedback to make changes, as it was too close to the patch. The original plan by Sewlek IIRC was that he was going to add the gliding 3d sound to the lerk, which would have worked like the previous 'Airplane' lerk.

Celerity I can fix pretty easily, the main problem there is the lerk gains most of its extra speed from reduced friction by celerity, which I didnt realize.

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Tinki

We're grumpy

Posts: 63
Location: France
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Great, I guess this is going to be another thing with bad feedback that will stick to the mod. I'm done, this is just stupid, enjoy your ensl season with 20 teams. This is all you, and you know it (well I know it, for some teams who disband last season)

I'm done.

But please don't touch the vanilla game balance (cause some of you also work in CDT)

At least i tried, even if i was just paraphrasing other players.
#Nofeedback

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RisingSun

Posts: 57
Location: United States of America
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Tinki says

Great, I guess this is going to be another thing with bad feedback that will stick to the mod. I'm done, this is just stupid, enjoy your ensl season with 20 teams. This is all you, and you know it (well I know it, for some teams who disband last season)

I'm done.

But please don't touch the vanilla game balance (cause some of you also work in CDT)

At least i tried, even if i was just paraphrasing other players.
#Nofeedback

Tinki, all you tried was complaining about every change made and not giving feedback on how to make things better but staying in line with their vision of the lerk. UWE left the game incomplete and the CDT and Comp mod team are picking up the pieces.

I would be angry also if they didnt share their end game vision for the changes, but they have been very clear on what they want and the direction they are taking. They even reverted the airplane lerk in response to another possible way of getting the same result. At no time did they say these changes are final, but we are reaching lockdown time for Season 5.

If you are frustrated and think you arent being heard (like i did) then attend the Comp Mod TS meeting. I felt better after that session and felt like i was actually heard. I got instant feedback for any and all suggestions and an explanation on how i could refine my suggestion to better meet the Comp Mod vision.

Help make the game better instead of throwing around ultimatums.

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Tinki

We're grumpy

Posts: 63
Location: France
Joined: 9 April 2013

No comment.

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rantology

The Boys

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Thank you to those providing well reasoned feedback. Dragon is going to take a look at celerity and we'll try to find good values for it.

Tinki, there is a difference between not listening, and not implementing. We listen, read, and debate every issue that is brought up here. Just because feedback does not translate directly into changes does not mean it is not valued and wanted. All you've done is brazenly displayed your disapproval of the change, which is fine, but you do not bring any alternatives, reasoning or theorycraft to the table and for this there is not much we can respond to. I'm sorry you've grown frustrated with this change.

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Wob

B L I N K

Posts: 296
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
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Lerk was OP, some teams would go 3 lerks early game if they had done well enough to just squash marines.

These changes make it harder to play but for the sake of balance, it's something that needed addressing. Also it's only harder to play because silly mechanics were making it pretty easy in the first place. Adapt please.

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ironhorse

element

Extra-Staff: UWE Liaison
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Golden says

The issue now is that lerks are too greatly rewarded for low-risk behavior

Speaking from a lesser skilled position : Lerk biting is not low risk behavior!
In fact, that's about as high risk as playing that class can get, even with the current lack of audio cues when gliding.

While I don't support free silence, and I support a fix for it, there's a number of reasons why I see people taking issue with this change. For one, it's not recognizing the average capability of a Lerk, where they may be leaning on such a mechanic to successfully pull off that risky behavior of biting. I say leaning to put some perspective in this, because having you, Golden easily adapt to this change means practically nothing lol..

*You are the skill ceiling*, and while it's good to balance for such a thing, the skill floor (what the average player is capable of) must also be accounted for... For example: A Lerk that you, Golden, can play properly that no other skill level can is a poor design, just as much as a Lerk that makes rookies as effective as yourself. (a low skill ceiling)

That's not justification alone to scrap the change, however - but it is enough to warrant a buff to the class to make up for it.

If this silent gliding wasn't frequently used then people wouldn't be attempting to fix it. I think it's safe to claim that the Lerk's most frequent application and engagement of its primary weapon is about to be nerfed.... So in order to not lessen its effectiveness overall, (and further the noobtrap that is Lerk bite!) why not provide a buff elsewhere, one that can encourage its role and maintain its effectiveness?

These are just ideas, nothing seriously thought out :
Why not slightly increase spike accuracy and distance?
Or maybe increase spike ROF equal to the decrease in damage?
Why not bring back (real) pancaking for more evasive maneuvers?

It needs something, imo, because removing a free silent form of travel is paramount - but so is not decimating the effectiveness of a class by nerfing the method in which its primary weapon has been used and balanced around for the past 2 years.
(and boy do i hate that it's the primary weapon..)

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Simba

Posts: 311
Location: United States of America
Joined: 24 June 2012

Tinki says

Great, I guess this is going to be another thing with bad feedback that will stick to the mod. I'm done, this is just stupid, enjoy your ensl season with 20 teams. This is all you, and you know it (well I know it, for some teams who disband last season)

I'm done.

But please don't touch the vanilla game balance (cause some of you also work in CDT)

At least i tried, even if i was just paraphrasing other players.
#Nofeedback

You're not the only one with an opinion, and you can't throw a hissy fit if you don't get your way. community doesn't mean Tinki is always right.

There are many who agree with you ,and many who don't. Quantify that, and let there be an opportunity for this to be discussed.

Don't act like a child.

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NotDragon

Extra-Staff: NSL Mod (Creator) Coder
Posts: 64
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Ok so I fucked up the friction calculation sorta...
Its fixed now, you should try it again.

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bonage

JUST THE TIP

Posts: 34
Location: Australia
Joined: 15 November 2012

NotDragon says

Ok so I fucked up the friction calculation sorta...
Its fixed now, you should try it again.

Feels 10x better now.

Shark lerk may be back though - may want to check into that.

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AusNS2 Admin

Iots

el'pheer

Posts: 136
Location: Finland
Joined: 7 May 2005

@bonage, i see you're prolly only one here who understood the whole energy management so if you could after testing the current lerk say if it's the same as vanilla, or worse. I don't want to be more gimped in comba as I don't have time to play the game myself atm.

@Tinki, don't mistake talking with your buddies, or having the google doc signed with +100ppl, to think that everyone agrees with everything you say, and yes i know it wasn't your google doc(afaik), For the record, i don't agree with you either..

@rantology, i vote for option 2, gliding needs to stay in the game, it will be way too huge of a change, and please don't compare this to skulk/fade situations of past, that is just a silly argument.

@ironhorse, the low risk behaviour is not biting the marine, it's the fact you can move around the map huge stances silently with out a worry in the world of loosing your lifeform, you need to overextend heavily to have the same effect as every other lifeform has to worry about in this game. Being able to get "free bites" on a marine is just a plus, as it's most time luck if the marine is not looking at your direction or not.

I don't want this gameplay to be removed completely, cause i fear it'll change to meta way too much, thus i don't want there to be 24/7 sound to gliding. At the same time i don't want lerk to be gimped into oblivion regarding close combat potential either.

Also, please stop with the references to how UWE wanted the game. Or how "things have been" in the past. There's no excuse for bad game design, and there's been from what i understand so many different variations of ns2 in the past years due to horrible engine performance, or any other issue the game has had. We've played the "same game" since compmod was implemented, and the only thing that has changed in "vanilla" game has been the latest performance improvements, this is the time you can and should finalise different features of the game. Not bicker about fantasies of a company that sees it more beneficial to make a fucking underwater game, than work on a better version of natural selection. :/

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Seb

Posts: 95
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 23 April 2013

The change to the lerk is superb, good middle ground. Nice job!

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Iots

el'pheer

Posts: 136
Location: Finland
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Yeh, had some rounds on HBZ and had chance to lerk around, it's more or less the same but i'm not 100% convinced the energy cost is yet perfect, but i can live with it for now.

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