The NSL Competitive Mod - old thread

Tico
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13 July 2016 - 01:39 CEST
#1
For those of you who may not know already, the NSL will be once again using another balance mod, Decks Balance Mod. This thread was created for the use of providing feedback, for said mod.

Heres a list of all the current changes within Decks Balance Mod:

Alien life forms will gain personal res at a rate of .125
Onos, Fades and Lerks will gain 20% slower at .1

Machinegun weight has been lowered to match shotgun

Boneshield armor per second reduced to 0
Boneshield damage reduction increased to 75%
Boneshield cooldown reduced to 6.25 seconds

Removed the ability to drop lifeform eggs.
Increased attack delay from focus from +50% to +75%

Heres a 2nd list providing information on what we are looking to change next within the mod:

1) Review Pres changes. Does the pres changes work or are marines getting too much pres? (too many sgs or jps). Are aliens still getting lifeforms too quickly? Do we make additional changes to the pres lerks/fades/onos get? Or do we revert pres back to old comp mod before the vanilla changes to pres rate were made?

2) Remove Health bars from field players. Add healtbar to commander view if it can be done. Make sure health bars are removed for field players first if commander update can't be made. This should be the same for both teams.

3) Change Focus damage and attack speed. Discussions already about this, figure out the math so it doesn't allow a 1 swipe/1 bite kill on a 0 armor left marine. 3 chambers are needed to reach full potential of focus as discussed. Change it to a 30% dmg increase at 3 veils?

4) Change rupture – change to biomass 6 – may have to remove parasite ability, but I say we first test it at biomass 6. Could allow an alien commander to parasite marines mid to late game when there are hardly any skulks on the field. Could add an additional element to game-play without hurting the comp environment.

5) Look into changing flamethrower – remove energy regeneration reduction on aliens and increase armor damage – make it a support weapon that injures armor of aliens, doesn't reduce an alien energy, regeneration, and does barely any damage to aliens health. This could be used on hive pushes to help the sgers or machine gunners kill a life form, and doesn't make it annoying for aliens when they lose all their energy and can't swipe or move.

6) Look into changing cysts – look into what is the best way to have cysts work in a comp environment.

7) Look into adding gorge bhop/advanced movement ability for gorge.

Please post all your feedback, ideas, concerns or whatever you may have about the changes in this thread.

lebra
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13 July 2016 - 18:20 CEST
#2
hi i have some suggestions that i think can improve the game involving renaming several buildings/structures:
balance changes can be discussed later once they're implemented

Marine
Command Center = ClamSand Oyster
Extractor = Sextractor
Infantry Portal = Inflatable Pores
Arms Lab = Alarms Lap
Observatory = Observerdery
Armory = Armani
Prototype Lab = Protobyke Lan
Robotics Factory = Roblockticks Flanktory
Sentry = Yrtnes
Arc = Car
Marine = Maroon

if you're interested we'll keep going with alien structures thanks

https://youtu.be/4SGXr0VHwcE?t=13s
Bicsum
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14 July 2016 - 19:10 CEST
#3
About the pres accumulation: I would keep it as in vanilla, but increase onos pres cost, so that oni are delayed by 1-2 minutes with an average alien economy. In addition, I would buff the marines hive/pve killing capabilities for mid to late game, so that you don't have to kill most of the alien life forms before you're able to push.

E.g. by buffing arcs, nerfing matured hive hp, buffing grenades, etc.

I think it would generally be more interesting, if the game weren't decided by depleting the opponents pres pool as much, but with taking tech points.

Ideally the game should be balanced in a way that the aliens don't want more than two of a life form type no matter what and are still able to lose the game with all their life forms up.

The latter might be achieved by giving the marines more game ending tech. I thought about something like making exos a TRES game ending tech like arcs, so that the commander builds exos in an "exo robotics factory" and marines are able to jump in.

You could then have the marines sitting in exos be beaconed back to base without the exo suit, without fucking over the players PRES. You could then have as many exos as you can afford and would still not be vulnerable to game ending base rushes. Those base rushes would then be used to kill the abandoned exo suits (like the arcs).

You could then also limit exos better. For example by giving them a battery bar, which depletes with every action (shooting, walking, boosting, etc), and is replenished with (sentry) batteries or power surge.
Deck
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14 July 2016 - 19:23 CEST
#4
^ - I think the best part about comp NS2 is the importance of alien life forms. Alien Pres/team play and how that dictates the game. I don't think NS2 is at it's best when you have all alien life forms up, and they feel like they can't defeat marines because exo's or end game marine tech is so strong. Marines are already really powerful with weapon upgrades, shotguns, and machine guns in the hands of good shooters. You can push life forms out of the room. You get jp's and cat packs that make it a lot easier to kill life forms. I think we want PVP to be fun and be as important as it's been, perhaps more, but not less.

Yes, sometimes NS2 in the mid to late game becomes a game where the aliens have too much res and too many lifeforms that the chance of marines killing multiple waves of life forms is very slim. The aliens earned that though by dominating the marines earlier in the game. I don't think the best alternative to that is have game ending tech for marines that make the lifeforms feel worthless. I don't want NS2 to turn into a tech point game. I think the game is much more interesting to watch and play when marines are constantly moving and attacking (unless they have most of the res on the map). The game is less interesting when it's a sit on tech point game (pubs).

I would be more in favor of limiting the pve stuff in the game and limiting exo's if they get too strong before doing what you suggested. Your idea about delaying the onos is an idea we will look into. It is possible with the new pres change in vanilla that the onos gets on the field too quickly in an average game. We already made changes to the alien pres to try to make the buffer marines get greater before seeing another wave of alien life forms. We will be looking into Pres as it's a very important part of the game. We will see about the onos. Hopefully people/servers can play with the mod and provide feedback on how it's going.

New Ideas/additional ideas to above list for the Comp Mod:
- Remove nutrient mist ability to heal cysts and remove nutrient mist ability to prevent damage to structures when not on infestation. Review to see how this update would work with the cysts currently in vanilla.
- Increase the damage welders do to cysts.
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14 July 2016 - 21:13 CEST
#5
Is welder damage really a problem? I never kill cysts with welders so I have no idea how important that change would be.

Pres: Imo Onos comes too early. But to be honest I felt it came too early even before the new pres change. 55 res is just not high enough of a pres investment. What I would like to see is a general higher Onos cost but less expensive Onos upgrades.
Starcetereus
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14 July 2016 - 21:23 CEST
#6
Everything bicsum said except increasing onos res cost (60 res max) is really, really bad. We don't need waves of lerks and fades by increasing alien res flow. We don't need weaker hives and stronger arcs/grenades to make marines easier and less skill based in a COMPETITIVE balance mod. The marines SHOULD have to be able to kill lifeforms to win the game. And T Res Exos? Are you serious? Might as well add onos eggs. And making exos able to beacon (even if they beacon back without their exo suits) is horrible because it negates the tactical disadvantage of using exos. It would be like making onos fly so they can kill and/or outrun jetpackers. Not only that, but if you were going to beacon back without exos, either they would have to be really cheap, and exo spam would be THE meta, or a beacon would be such a catastrophic res loss that no sane marine commander would ever get exos. Limiting exos as you suggested would be both very hard to code and maintain with each update, as well as being completely retarded. "You now have to choose between walking and shooting your exo during a hive push, this is competitively balanced."

TL;DR No.
aaa
Starcetereus
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14 July 2016 - 21:58 CEST
#7
Bicsum should work for UWE's balance team tbh fam
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15 July 2016 - 13:04 CEST
#8
Deckard says

^ - I think the best part about comp NS2 is the importance of alien life forms. Alien Pres/team play and how that dictates the game. I don't think NS2 is at it's best when you have all alien life forms up, and they feel like they can't defeat marines because exo's or end game marine tech is so strong. Marines are already really powerful with weapon upgrades, shotguns, and machine guns in the hands of good shooters. You can push life forms out of the room. You get jp's and cat packs that make it a lot easier to kill life forms. I think we want PVP to be fun and be as important as it's been, perhaps more, but not less.

Yes, sometimes NS2 in the mid to late game becomes a game where the aliens have too much res and too many lifeforms that the chance of marines killing multiple waves of life forms is very slim. The aliens earned that though by dominating the marines earlier in the game. I don't think the best alternative to that is have game ending tech for marines that make the lifeforms feel worthless. I don't want NS2 to turn into a tech point game. I think the game is much more interesting to watch and play when marines are constantly moving and attacking (unless they have most of the res on the map). The game is less interesting when it's a sit on tech point game (pubs).

I would be more in favor of limiting the pve stuff in the game and limiting exo's if they get too strong before doing what you suggested. Your idea about delaying the onos is an idea we will look into. It is possible with the new pres change in vanilla that the onos gets on the field too quickly in an average game. We already made changes to the alien pres to try to make the buffer marines get greater before seeing another wave of alien life forms. We will be looking into Pres as it's a very important part of the game. We will see about the onos. Hopefully people/servers can play with the mod and provide feedback on how it's going.



I also want the focus on PVP, which is precisely why I'm suggesting to buff the marines pve killing capabilities, while keeping the increased PRES income for aliens. The interesting part of the game is fighting and killing life forms and playing as life forms. With higher life form uptime, the game would stay more interesting. However, if you depend on killing life forms in order to push hives, you get unnecessarily long games, because you often depend on the aliens making mistakes for them to lose their life forms.
Also, pushing the hive is always a risk and if the marines wipe in a hive push, they often end up only losing map control without gaining anything, because healing structures is basically free.

I'm not trying to suggest changes that will let you camp until you have your one shot hive killing cannon, but ending the game as marine should be more likely even with life forms up. If you THEN manage to deplete ones aliens PRES pool, it should hurt the alien team more than it does right now.

More things I could think of to make pushing for marines more rewarding, would be to nerf the gorges hive healing, and give the hive a healing over time ability that costs TRES (100% hp healing = 40 TRES). You would buy those HOTs in steps of 10% hp healing for 4 TRES, stackable up to 10 times. That way, every bit of damage is meaningful and it wouldn't be like "all or nothing (and less)".

Starcetereus says
And T Res Exos? Are you serious? Might as well add onos eggs. And making exos able to beacon (even if they beacon back without their exo suits) is horrible because it negates the tactical disadvantage of using exos. It would be like making onos fly so they can kill and/or outrun jetpackers. Not only that, but if you were going to beacon back without exos, either they would have to be really cheap, and exo spam would be THE meta, or a beacon would be such a catastrophic res loss that no sane marine commander would ever get exos. Limiting exos as you suggested would be both very hard to code and maintain with each update, as well as being completely retarded. "You now have to choose between walking and shooting your exo during a hive push, this is competitively balanced."

TL;DR No.


The way I see it, exos can never be viable or balanced in its current form of implementation.

I see the following problems with exos:
- not cost effective (the pres investment is not retainable like a jetpackers weapon)
- lack of mobility (phase gates, beacon, entering vents, movement speed)
- squishy (not meddable, easy to hit, lack of skill based evasive manouvers)
- too much damage to make up for its disadvantages


An exo strategy currently feel like a risky all-in move, that depends on the aliens making mistakes in order to be successful.
They are directly competing with jetpacks, which - unlike the exos - don't have any downsides, while being less expensive. There is no reason to get an exo when you can have a jetpack+hmg, which does the job better and is less expensive.

If the exos are tied to TRES, you would limit the amount of exos on the field, because you would lack the resources to provide an exo for everyone when researched, unlike with the PRES implementation, where theoretically the whole team could buy one at once. The current implementation of nerfing a full team of exos is by making the marine team more vulnerable to base rushes, which makes exos an unnecessarily risky strat.

If you invest in such a strong game ending tech, you shouldn't get such downsides, as being more vulnerable to losing yourself. The ideal way would be to have exo marines beaconed back to base without their exo, so you can counter exos like you would counter ARCs, but you can't do that, if it's a PRES investment. You would feel screwed over as exo marine when beaconed back.

Losing a TRES exo would be painful, but not as devastating a PRES exo.

The point of the battery is to further limit having multiple exos in one place. You may have multiple exos, but those exos would have to share the energy of one battery, which lessens their effectiveness, unless they're supported with TRES through power surge.

The aliens would also have a better counter to exos, since they would just have to kill the battery to shut them down or make them back off.

Exos shouldn't compete with jetpacks, but with ARCs in order to be viable.

About the programming part, I don't think it's that hard to do.
- the exo hud would need a reversed jet pack fuel bar
- sentry batteries would need a crag like energy heal
- the robotics factory would get an "exo factory" upgrade (like arcs factory), which depends on having exo tech from the proto lab, and the ability to produce exos
Starcetereus
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15 July 2016 - 18:08 CEST
#9
@bicsum dawg, before you go typing any more essays about why you think that would be a good idea, just save yourself the time and energy, because none of that's ever going to happen. Not only are your changes neither necessary nor a good idea, but it also goes against the mission statement of the balance mod which is to keep changes as simple and easy to maintain as possible so updates don't break the mod, and if an update does it would be easy to fix.
aaa
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15 July 2016 - 18:17 CEST
#10
Bicsum - I understand now that you're not trying to ruin the pvp nature of the game, but you're focused on exo's and arc's. I just don't think those are the most fun part of the game. I think exo rushes or exo pushes are pretty boring, and yes usually a last effort or you're hoping the aliens mess up. I think the gameplay is better when marines are not in exo's. So I don't think it's worth going down that road of changing exo's and changing arc's. Again, this is just not the interesting stuff in the game for me. I might nerf exo's if vanilla keeps making them stronger, but that's it. I don't want that to be a bigger part of the game.

Based on recent discussions, we are looking to do the following:
-Increasing Pres needed to go Onos
- Changing Cysts - less hp for cysts, possibly a different maturity rate, hopefully have cysts break/die when the cyst chain breaks.
- Nutrient Mist - needs to be nerfed so people can't stop structures from taking damage off infestation.
- Rupture - moving to biomass 4.
-Gorge Bhop - will be added back to the game.
-Focus - remove 1 bite kills for skulks, but keep same for other life forms. So it will be nerf to the damage for a skulk using focus only.
- Health bars - looking into possibly removing these for field players.

Hopefully we can get most of the above changed for next play test. At this time we are looking to do play tests on Tuesdays in gathers/no rookies pub server. We may also try one on sunday if there's enough interest in gathers/testing on that day.
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15 July 2016 - 18:41 CEST
#11
Deckard says


Based on recent discussions, we are looking to do the following:
-Increasing Pres needed to go Onos
- Changing Cysts - less hp for cysts, possibly a different maturity rate, hopefully have cysts break/die when the cyst chain breaks.
- Nutrient Mist - needs to be nerfed so people can't stop structures from taking damage off infestation.
- Rupture - moving to biomass 4.
-Gorge Bhop - will be added back to the game.
-Focus - remove 1 bite kills for skulks, but keep same for other life forms. So it will be nerf to the damage for a skulk using focus only.
- Health bars - looking into possibly removing these for field players.

Would be cool to read something like this as the changelog of an NS2 update lol.

One thing to focus: I understand the change from a balance standpoint and I think it is fine there, even though I expected a nerf to fades too. I just don't think it should be the way to go making an upgrade inconsistent for different lifeforms.
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15 July 2016 - 18:45 CEST
#12
Home says
Deckard says


Based on recent discussions, we are looking to do the following:
-Increasing Pres needed to go Onos
- Changing Cysts - less hp for cysts, possibly a different maturity rate, hopefully have cysts break/die when the cyst chain breaks.
- Nutrient Mist - needs to be nerfed so people can't stop structures from taking damage off infestation.
- Rupture - moving to biomass 4.
-Gorge Bhop - will be added back to the game.
-Focus - remove 1 bite kills for skulks, but keep same for other life forms. So it will be nerf to the damage for a skulk using focus only.
- Health bars - looking into possibly removing these for field players.

Would be cool to read something like this as the changelog of an NS2 update lol.

One thing to focus: I understand the change from a balance standpoint and I think it is fine there, even though I expected a nerf to fades too. I just don't think it should be the way to go making an upgrade inconsistent for different lifeforms.


The focus thing will be reviewed. This is perhaps an early change to see how it goes. I want a lot of testing on this to see how this plays out with fades specifically. I understand your point about not having it be different. This is looked at as a compromise so skulks can't fly into a room and kill a marine before he/she had a chance to get a kill/enough bullets into the skulk.

Hopefully marines are welding mid game. I'm not sold on this idea, but it might be first tried to see how it plays out. It does make shade hive more useful as a 2nd hive and you have the tradeoff of not having cara or regen which does make you more vulnerable as a fade. It might depend on how well a marine team welds and how good the players are at getting meat shots on a fade.

Edit: Mod was updated, name is now: NSL Competitive Mod - Changes from vanilla listed at link:
Workshop Link

The NSL Competitive Mod should be in a playable state. Please provide feedback here for how the gameplay is going.
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18 July 2016 - 09:29 CEST
#13
My memory isn't so good. What happened the last time NSL relied on a comp mod? Can it be avoided with this mod?
Tyr
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18 July 2016 - 11:24 CEST
#14
Keats says
My memory isn't so good. What happened the last time NSL relied on a comp mod? Can it be avoided with this mod?


Trying to keep it as simple as possible, changing just a few numbers to make it more balanced. The problem is that the vanilla game is too broken and unbalanced for competitive play, hence the mod. You simple can't have vanilla boneshield in a 6v6 and the pres changes.
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18 July 2016 - 16:51 CEST
#15
Could we just change the rupture to what it was before UWE fucked with it instead of moving it to bio 4? Moving it to bio 4 doesn't make it less any cancer. Or just reducing the uptime of it's parasite similar to Gorge-Webs would also work.
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18 July 2016 - 19:36 CEST
#16
caperp says
Could we just change the rupture to what it was before UWE fucked with it instead of moving it to bio 4? Moving it to bio 4 doesn't make it less any cancer. Or just reducing the uptime of it's parasite similar to Gorge-Webs would also work.


The rupture parasite only lasts 10 seconds in vanilla... moving it to biomass 4 actually balances the ability. Because it needing to unlocked at bio 4 this means the commander needs to invest in order to use it. And for the ability to even be useful, a marine needs to not be parasited and on infestation.

And if the aliens are the relying on the commander to get parasites that only last 10 seconds when the 2nd hive is up. Your skulks arent doing what theyre supposed to be doing. Because at that point in the game most marines should either be accounted for (knowong where they are without be parasited) or already parasited by the time they reach infestation.
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18 July 2016 - 21:52 CEST
#17
Oh sry I didn't know UWE balanced rupture already. I guess it doesn't really matter then, although the change makes bio 2 even more useless than before.

One other thing that might be worth discussing are lerk spores on bio 4. I think they worked quite well as a game-finisher on hive 3 in the old comp-mod. I haven't really played much at all with these new ones though, so i can't really say much other than that they feel annoying to play against them as early as the early-mid-game already.
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19 July 2016 - 01:28 CEST
#18
After playing some gathers and watching some 6v6 play with the new mod, marines are shooting very well. This could be a combination of things: players not having practice against good shots, the health bars making it easier to focus the hurt life form, alien teams in a gather not working together, and/or the pres changes which seems to be resulting in marines getting shotguns and weapons at a very high rate.

The first thing I want to do is remove the health bars, and reduce the marine pres rate. We already changed the pres on aliens to try to increase the buffer time between life form waves. I want to make additional changes to increase the buffer between shotgun waves. This all might result in us changing the game back to the old pres numbers, but I'm trying to find a balance where the game
feels slightly crazier than before but teams are still rewarded for good plays. Look for some additional changes coming to the mod soon.

Edit: Health bars have been removed in the NSL Competitive Mod. Time to play some ns2.
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19 July 2016 - 05:39 CEST
#19
ns who?
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
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19 July 2016 - 14:29 CEST
#20
Deckard says
After playing some gathers and watching some 6v6 play with the new mod, marines are shooting very well. This could be a combination of things: players not having practice against good shots, the health bars making it easier to focus the hurt life form, alien teams in a gather not working together, and/or the pres changes which seems to be resulting in marines getting shotguns and weapons at a very high rate.

The first thing I want to do is remove the health bars, and reduce the marine pres rate. We already changed the pres on aliens to try to increase the buffer time between life form waves. I want to make additional changes to increase the buffer between shotgun waves. This all might result in us changing the game back to the old pres numbers, but I'm trying to find a balance where the game
feels slightly crazier than before but teams are still rewarded for good plays. Look for some additional changes coming to the mod soon.

Edit: Health bars have been removed in the NSL Competitive Mod. Time to play some ns2.


i can agree here. on pub most of the games are won by marines if the marines have at least 2 or 3 very good aimer.
i think the pres change for rines is an important thing. but now we change the rine pres, before we changed alien pres.......... why not completly return to the old 0.1 tick? would solve all problems imo.

i also think that the marine domination is happening because of the missing team work from the aliens. in pubs you literally have 0 teamwork. so good aimer have it very easy to kill skulks one by one. that leads to a big incresement of marine wins. and then remi explains us that marines are overpowerd........

i would do two things. return the pres completly to 0.1 and lets test it again with GOOD alien teams with good teamwork.
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19 July 2016 - 17:24 CEST
#21
Rammler says


i can agree here. on pub most of the games are won by marines if the marines have at least 2 or 3 very good aimer.
i think the pres change for rines is an important thing. but now we change the rine pres, before we changed alien pres.......... why not completly return to the old 0.1 tick? would solve all problems imo.

i also think that the marine domination is happening because of the missing team work from the aliens. in pubs you literally have 0 teamwork. so good aimer have it very easy to kill skulks one by one. that leads to a big incresement of marine wins. and then remi explains us that marines are overpowerd........

i would do two things. return the pres completly to 0.1 and lets test it again with GOOD alien teams with good teamwork.


We may change the pres back to the way it was before. First we will be testing without health bars to see if that makes any difference. Marines might still be getting too much pres.
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19 July 2016 - 18:41 CEST
#22
You shouldn't test without health bars to see if it makes a difference, you should remove them for good because they're simply stupid.

You're spending too much time trying to tweak whatever crap was added to the game. Don't waste you effort. Revert to what worked before and go on from there.
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19 July 2016 - 18:49 CEST
#23
No plans to bring back health bars. They are being removed because I think they help marines more, but also because they seem to take a good part of ns2 out of the game. Which is reacting quickly to aliens based on communication and not an assist. So yes, regardless of balance, I think they will stay removed from comp mod. I don't think we are going to revert everything back to the way it was, as some differences are not bad for people to adjust to which gives the game something new. We are trying to remove the op'd stuff.

If you are talking about pres, that may just be reverted. You could say that we are spending too much time trying to tweak pres when we could just revert it. Let's play test the mod and let me know what people think regarding the pres.
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25 July 2016 - 14:08 CEST
#24
Hmmm... Is a medpack change in discussion too? I am not sure if it is needed from a balance standpoint (aside from Lerks who greatly benefited from the vanilla nerf), but imo it removed some fun of medpacking and it also lowered the impact a commander can have in engagements. May work for Pubs, but is it something we want for competitive?
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#25
Duplicate post. Edited by admin-deck.
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25 July 2016 - 15:40 CEST
#26
I think meds are fine as is. I usually only lose 1-2 marines i could have saved with the old meds per pcw - And even those few mostly come down to me being too slow anyways.
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#27
No plans to change the meds right now. If enough people complain about the meds, we will look into it. I don't think the change is a bad thing based on what I've seen so far.
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26 July 2016 - 13:28 CEST
#28
Wasnt the medpacks change before due to marines were overpowered before the sprint changes? And some other changes.. I stopped looking after 249 :)

Maybe the comms should have a point of view regarding medpacks and not fieldplayers:)
Rammler
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26 July 2016 - 18:30 CEST
#29
With the new hitboxes we should think about the comp mod in a new way. as seen on remis win-graph aliens won nearly 70% of all games before 305. with 305 all changed. an marines won nearly 70%. So the game balance changed very often in the last time. So nobody knows how good the comp-mod really behaves in the current situation
Nightsy
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Alski Syndrome
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28 July 2016 - 23:04 CEST
#30
Rammler says
With the new hitboxes we should think about the comp mod in a new way. as seen on remis win-graph aliens won nearly 70% of all games before 305. with 305 all changed. an marines won nearly 70%. So the game balance changed very often in the last time. So nobody knows how good the comp-mod really behaves in the current situation


redo hitbox changes because they suck.
you can kill 3 skulks with lmg clip easy now and get up to 50% on pubs, its ridiculous
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