I'm not exactly sure on the timescale regarding the offering of the other 2 mercs. From what I understand you showed up 15-20mins late then messed around for another 5-10mins trying to get Tap to play for you.

Either way Tag, you wanted a merc for our games too, thats 2/3 of your matches. You have 10 people in you're team you need to start turning up with them on-time

Kilo says

PS: The rules do seem a little incomplete around this area though. There are restrictions for high skilled mercs/substitues, but nothing in place to stop such a player officially joining a team (after the seeding period) and playing for you all season...

BTW. Thanks for seeing my original point. The system has some issues. Mainly for one admin to have the final say in any decision is inherently flawed IMO.

I think humans are not perfect, look at me, and we become biased and emotional and the littlest factors influence our decisions.

When PP first talked to us, their leader apologized profusely for his teams behavior. Today he said he lost all respect for me.

I've been trying to keep civilized dialogue open with him and awaiting his decision on scheduling and playing a fair game with us.

I'm also filing an appeal with a timeline and logs, video proof etc. (Because that's what NS2 is all about).

My point is. I brought up a flaw in the system. And pretty much everyone lashed out at me about my bad manners. Ignoring the fact that another team left before approving any of the 3 mercs we had.

I feel bad they were delayed in any way. But according to the rules we are allowed to have up to 2 mercs. By match time we only needed one and things were delayed for a very long time due to ref miscommunication. NOT from our ability to field players.

I'll prove this in my upcoming appeal.

But I can tell you this. Aphex would never take 4 points from another team that wanted to play us.

****So again I am BEGGING Perfect Peckers. Whatever our differences are. Please, we WANT TO PLAY YOU. We want to play a fair match. And I don't care who wins. I'd say the same thing I've said to every team we've ever played a match against.****

TY for the games.

Kilo says

Either way Tag, you wanted a merc for our games too, thats 2/3 of your matches. You have 10 people in you're team you need to start turning up with them on-time

Well, in all fairness we've only played 2 so far.

I don't remember having a merc in our game vs you. But I know you guys played a REALLY strong game and we were impressed. I hope you do well this season. You guys have a good shot at taking Div 2!

As for the roster. I agree with you. Alot of those guys are inactive and need to be removed.

Last night, Tagwolf also admits to me total ignorance that I am the league admin and that he was unaware that the current league rules were overhauled because he hasn't been keeping up with the league and even rarely reads the front page news posts. Yet he readily quotes parts of the rule set to suit his needs without mentioning other parts that contradict his points.

Also, the name calling and insinuations of bias is pretty irritating. Is Zefram a dictator? Tagwolf would like you to think so. Yet here's the record since before the start of Season 4.

Seedings - Were they put up for league approval and commentary for almost a month? And after multiple conversations with players across the league for weeks, were they continually refined?

Rules - Were they posted more than a month in advance of the start of the season for league approval? Were they continually refined even until now when issues come up and need to address more specific situation?

Balance Mod - Perhaps potentially the most disruptive thing possible. Were all the captains reached personally and conversations had before implementing massive changes in gameplay? Have changes and points in the mod been posted for league approval and debate and then even changed because of those conversations?

EVERY SINGLE MAJOR POINT AND DECISION has been brought to the community. Yet, I'm a tyrannical dictator who does not care about the league, teams, or players. I just decide things on a whim and how I'm feeling on a particular day. Yep, that's me.

Rules don't get debated until they affect you right?

tagwolf says

I don't remember having a merc in our game vs you. But I know you guys played a REALLY strong game and we were impressed. I hope you do well this season. You guys have a good shot at taking Div 2!

Ego boosted, mission accomplished!

Now we can ignore this shithole of a thread, filled with terrible memes, terrible arguments, and terrible people.

Too much? :D

Zefram says

Last night, Tagwolf also admits to me total ignorance that I am the league admin and that he was unaware that the current league rules were overhauled because he hasn't been keeping up with the league and even rarely reads the front page news posts. Yet he readily quotes parts of the rule set to suit his needs without mentioning other parts that contradict his points.

Also, the name calling and insinuations of bias is pretty irritating. Is Zefram a dictator? Tagwolf would like you to think so. Yet here's the record since before the start of Season 4.

Seedings - Were they put up for league approval and commentary for almost a month? And after multiple conversations with players across the league for weeks, were they continually refined?

Rules - Were they posted more than a month in advance of the start of the season for league approval? Were they continually refined even until now when issues come up and need to address more specific situation?

Balance Mod - Perhaps potentially the most disruptive thing possible. Were all the captains reached personally and conversations had before implementing massive changes in gameplay? Have changes and points in the mod been posted for league approval and debate and then even changed because of those conversations?

EVERY SINGLE MAJOR POINT AND DECISION has been brought to the community. Yet, I'm a tyrannical dictator who does not care about the league, teams, or players. I just decide things on a whim and how I'm feeling on a particular day. Yep, that's me. But rules don't get debated until they affect you right? Typical.

I think this post in itself kinda shows that you may be letting your emotions influence some of your decisions.

But as I said I'll provide you with everything you need tonight to make a fair ruling.

This is NOT what NS2 should be about though.

I'm literally exhausted and literally have narcolepsy so I need to pass out and get you the info later on.

If I can be blunt. I don't think that putting the latest rules in a google doc on the news page is the best place for them.

they should probably show up when you click on the league page AND when you click the "Rules" link at the top of the site. I know I'm not the only one confused. And yes, now I am forced to comb over all the rules like a law student because we are so paranoid of anything that we won't get to play or that teams could abuse a loophole.

TBH. When I asked you the first time if we could rescheudle, you said No and immediately signed off. I consulted other refs and they said, YES you can reschedule.

You then made a ruling on the first page that this match should be rescheduled. Then changed your mind. You claim that you discovered some new information which I am still unclear on. But it seems like an emotional decision to me and others on my team. Of course we have some bias.

You mean a post that shows how I've historically made decisions for the league? Slow, logical, community assisted decisions. Is that the picture of an emotional and bias based person you'd like to paint?

tagwolf says

TBH. When I asked you the first time if we could rescheudle, you said No and immediately signed off. I consulted other refs and they said, YES you can reschedule.

Can you tell me why you asked other referees & admins after Zefram's decision? If Unique & me hadn't received any information from Zefram because he thought this issue was solved, of course people could say different answers, but you're the cause of this misunderstanding.

You don't have to ask different players until the answer is the one you wish, this is just stupid.


tagwolf says

I think this post in itself kinda shows that you may be letting your emotions influence some of your decisions.

I just need to take a look on your steam conversation with Decoy to tell you exactly the same.

This topic seems useless because you don't want to accept the fact you're wrong. Yes, we agree there was a lack of communication between NSL staff for this match (issue a little caused by you BTW), but you have to respect Zefram's decision, you can contest it OFC, that's the case here. Just pay attention to the messages on this topic, & it seems you were responsible of the forfeit. It's a lot of nonsense.

You need to ban me from the forums for a week

So, i feel like i should clear things up, incase people stil are wondering. THIS IS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE NOTHING ELSE!!!!

Im gonna start this in Chronological order so you guys know what happend and WHEN it happend.

Thursday: We want a rescedule to Sunday cause we cant say for sure we are 6 on Saturday and people wanted to go out. We got denyd cause they have another match on Sunday!

1Hour before the match: Aphex notifies us that they might need 2 Mercs.
40 Min before the Match: name TAP and Mr Pennil
" they are the same div" "bascially saying they are the same skill as people im replacing or worse"
At this point i ask my team if they know those guys and ask Zefram of their skill level, Team confirms that the people they ask Tell them these Mercs are DIV 1. I ask Zefram if it would be okay to denie those Mercs cause i have never done so, He says that he would support it and that i am allowed to decline said mercs!

20 Min before the Match: i tell Tag Wolf about this, and even show him that Zefram allowed me to denie said mercs!

At this point Tagwolf wants to rescedule which i denie cause my guys took of and canceled their Friends for this Game, and since we can only play the Americans on the Weekend and next Week is easter.

Then Tagwolf makes fun of me, starting with stuff like "aright ill get div 3 mercs or lower then" and stating "TAP is fine though he is div 2 !"

~22:00 Zefram is offline as we know.. Tagwolf already talked to him, we get into a discussion with Unique cause he doesnt know what to do, Tagwolf wants to let TAP play and they only need one Merc cause they are 5. AT THIS POINT MY TEAM WAS ON US EAST#2 wating for the game!!

He gets Pelagir to open up a groupchat at 22:20 ~ and pelagir Confirms that he can use TAP as a Player , not knowing that Zefram already declined that. I am told i have to let TAP play.

~22:30 we join the server and get ready to play with a NOT APPROVED MERC!
~22:35 Zefram comes back and makes it Obvious and textes APHEX that TAP IS NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY
Aphex starts arguing on the gamechat and tells us to get ready to play. While it is stated again "if you use TAP you forfeit the game"
We wait for them to switch the player.

~22:45 Nothing happens,
Unique the Game admin Writes to me "You win.4:0 Forfeit win" We quit the server.

NEXT MORING shitstorm on the Forums about how Unsportsman like we are, and how idiotic the Admins are disregarding Rules, Insulting Decoy, Insutling my Team and trying to push us into a Position that everybody says we are an Unfair team!

Things like !!" I've been trying to keep civilized dialogue open with him and awaiting his decision on scheduling and playing a fair game with us."
are posted.
Thats how it is? "Tag Wolf: fuck off
Tag Wolf: go take your win. I hope your team had fun and feels like big men" "Tag Wolf: can you talk to me like an adult?"

since it seems like Quoting people is the way to go here ill just do that.



CONCLUSION: They had 1Hour 15 Min time to get another Merc, THEY DID NOT GET THAT.
THEY FAILED TO GET 6 PLAYERS. AND REFUSED TO LISTEN TO THE HEAD ADMIN OF THIS LEAGUE.
They REFUSED TO RESCEDULE EARLYER!
and as a sidenote They tryed to get TAP as a Merc against VXA and got Denied there as well! THEY KNEW THEY CANT PLAY WITH TAP!

Our Decision: We are sorry about what happend, but the insultive way we got treated, and the way the Forums posts were made , the way we got our rescedule declined and they tryed to force a Merc on us that they know we did not want,and the disrespect to admins and other teams, makes us unwilling to Rescedule / play with APHEX at this point of time.

Hehe, tagwolf you wrote this:

"I've been trying to keep civilized dialogue open with him and awaiting his decision on scheduling and playing a fair game with us"...

I read the chat dialog with decoy, was that civilized like you want to be? Good job if this is the way you do it!

Finaly: Follow the rules, respect your oppenents and dont try to abuse the rules.

@habit: thx for the conclusion and decision.

gg!

I'm not gonna read your post habit, just ignore all this shit and accept tagwolf is a drama queen and let the staff handle all of this. In short, don't be french. :)

tagwolf says

TAP according to himself has been playing CS:GO and not ns2 for months. TAP has great snap aim but sometimes makes strange field calls. I do not believe his presence would have made an impact.

I suppose the same could be said for someone like Shades (actually the exact same, dude loves to rambo), but he can carry the shit out of any Div 1-or-below team (just watch any scrim whenever he rang for us in All-In v3.0).


tagwolf says

The most important rule here IMO is:

(e) Substitutes can not be denied in an attempt to force a forfeit.

Of course, you're operating under the assumption that the other team's intent from the start was to deny-spam mercs, when in reality, there's no possible way you could prove that empirically unless you were telepathic (and even then, it's still your word against theirs).

Considering I've quit this game outside of the occasional pub, I can look at this objectively especially since I don't have a dog in this fight: the onus of responsibility, as has been stated multiple times before, always ALWAYS falls upon the team who is NOT ready to play at the PRE-AGREED SCHEDULED time. You can essentially throw out any argument that revolves around BM, denying mercs, etc.

At the end of the day, it's a very simple question: could you field 6 members or 4+APPROVED mercs @ the time specified? Yes = Play. No = Forfeit. PP are well within their rights to accept the forfeit. Of course, they could be benevolent and grant a rematch, but judging from all the smack-talk, I find that outcome highly unlikely.

And it's understandable that you used that order for the mercs, considering tap is the strongest, PenniL the second, and Fisk rounding it out. If you had offered fiskbit as your first merc, the match would probably have been played but... well, who knows what the outcome would have been?

And one thing about the confusion while this was all happening... let's not blame the refs for the delays, shall we? Unless you've been a ref for NSL, you likely couldn't understand how confusing weekends can be. Just because they're the ref for your match doesn't mean they're exempt from other duties. Last season I function as both caster AND ref for my matches, and yet I still had (as I'm sure Pela and Unique did) massive amounts of other teams PMing me about their own matches to resolve issues (if anyone remembers watching my streams, you'll likely remember how often I would get PMed during a cast, followed up by my signature: "That's my Steam, not yours."). So yes, it can get quite overwhelming when there are, what, 3? 4 active refs? And ALL of them directing their OWN question to Zefram because they don't want to mess things up? I don't blame him for logging off Steam friends for a bit.


EDIT: While this reschedule likely won't happen, I think a showmatch between the two teams would be pretty sick. Rivalries grow the game, no matter how small! And a showmatch would get a lot of attention, I reckon, based on the drama this stirred up. Doooo it.

This thread has heart failure.

Moadib says

seriously what's wrong with you? GCC gets only one merc and it was me. You whine 15min because you think I'm on div 1 or I'm on RadicaL team (it's div 2) and I'm a fucking noob!

True words were spoken. Moadib onos always fail ;D

This thread is fucking amazing!

Cr4zy_ says

This thread is fucking amazing!

I agree. So glad I read this thread xD














Tag, other teams have ALWAYS been able to decline mercs. It's not often done but it's been in the rules since season 1. PP was right to deny tap from playing. I've commanded your team before. No one on your team is on tap's level. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. By trying to use tap as a merc you're basically trying to game the system.

Essentially, you'd be rule fucking them.

This issue has been a problem in seasons past, and I'm kind of glad to see it being taken more seriously.

Season 2, my team lost in the finals against CiB, but CiB was carried heavily by players from Onslaught.

Season 3, my team recruited fucking locklear half way through the season. Seem fair?

What you're trying to do is the same shit.

Sorry just woke up. Damn there's a lot to clear up here.

I still have to file the appeal. I'll get to that tonight or tomorrow.

I don't care about drama, I care about NS2 and a team walking away with an unfair win while we were within the rules. The appeal will show that as I have all the logs, casts, etc.

I also want to make it clear. I was not making fun of them when I said we'd get a Div 3 merc. I thought Fiskbit was in div 3. But his team was apparently moved up to Div 2 or so I've been told and I had forgotten about that at the time.

As far as scheduling on Saturday. I didn't rudely deny PP from playing sunday. I asked my team if they could make sunday. They said they couldn't. Time was running out so I asked if saturday was ok. You can see this plain as day on the match scheduling page:

http://www.ensl.org/matches/5538

By: tagwolf ( Aphex ) on 04/Apr/14 05:29 [ Q E ]
Spoke with ABadHabit on 4/4. Proposed 1pm PST on sat the 12th
By: ABadHabit ( Perfect Peckers ) on 06/Apr/14 13:27 [ Q ]
Confirmed 12th 22 CET

PP, I'm confused how you feel wronged here.

If it was my team, I'd want to play the people in order to get the experience and possibly the win fairly. I see this as excuses. Your team was just as rude to us if not moreso as they left when we asked if Fiskbit could play. that was our THIRD, merc request.

If you didn't want any, we asked if we could play with 5 for that round while the situation was resolved. Which in the rules on the link at the top of the page say is fine. If ANYTHING, you possibly should have the chance of winning that ROUND by default per the rules. And that would be if we were late to the start of the match, which we we're not and the video shows the timer counting down on our ready up time.

(v) If a game is being cast, teams are not to ready up until the administrators and casters also indicate that they are ready. (The START of the match)

The admins we're still resolving an issue.

Regardless of those rules, I will prove our team was ready to play within the match time and your team left first before the situation was resolved.

This exposes an issue in ref communication. I know you were on teamspeak with them. I was not and was in a chat room. I'm sure if we had all been able to speak at the time and refs has consistent instructions, this could have been cleared up much sooner and we would have been able to play.

I'm sorry you find our disagreement rude. But I find your team's behavior just as rude, as did you at the time as you were apologizing to me like crazy the second we joined the server. There is too much flip-flopping going on here.

If you think you deserve 4 points for doing nothing, I disagree. Which btw, a bunch of your players immediately began to scrim GCC after they left the match server.

GORGEous says

Is this a selfportrait?

i want to see a elo system to rank every ns2 player on this forums so we don't have a issue of "omgawsh he so op, nerf"

nezz says

i want to see a elo system to rank every ns2 player on this forums so we don't have a issue of "omgawsh he so op, nerf"

Can't we just use hive or ns2 stats :P

Careful if you Gather or play P.U.G.'s though. It'll drop you down to Div 4.

But you're right. I'm always down to take out *some* of the human equation from such decisions. Someone's judgement of one players skill is not always going to be the same as another.

Hey Pinocchio, my team doesn't owe you a thing, you owe us an apology for your bad behaviour and wasting everyone's time, including that of the NSL staff and the caster.
You yourself are the only reason this match didn't get played, take some responsibility instead of blaming the world around you for your own actions.
After reading all your posts I realise though that the joke is on us for even taking you serious.

Berend says

Hey Pinocchio, my team doesn't owe you a thing, you owe us an apology for your bad behaviour and wasting everyone's time, including that of the NSL staff and the caster.
You yourself are the only reason this match didn't get played, take some responsibility instead of blaming the world around you for your own actions.
After reading all your posts I realise though that the joke is on us for even taking you serious.

YOU LEFT in the middle of the match timer. Watch the cast again. I already apologized to Ren and promised him a great game vs you per zefram's ruling.

How about you do the right thing, stop BMing, and play the game that we owe the public like a team of people who are here to actually enjoy NS2 and not hide behind semantics.

Everything I've been hearing from your team seems to me like an excuse to avoid playing us because ultimately you want an easy win. So just put all the BS aside and play your rounds vs us.

And I don't care if you win or lose. But play the rounds in order to do that. How are you not getting that into your head?

Look here man, you can keep on repeating the same lies over and over, but it don't make them any more truthfull.
I think it's funny that you are pretending to abide Zefram's instructions now but on saturday you not only ignore his instructions regarding the eligibility of your merc, you lied to your own team, my team and to the ref's about it.
45 minutes after the scheduled time you were still trying to play with Tap, just for clarity, that is AFTER the counter expired.
So we gave you MORE time to get an eligble merc than what we were obliged to.
Just get a grip man, and stop wasting everyone's time.
I for one had enough of your baseless slander and manipulations.
Goodbye.

Berend says

Look here man, you can keep on repeating the same lies over and over, but it don't make them any more truthfull.
I think it's funny that you are pretending to abide Zefram's instructions now but on saturday you not only ignore his instructions regarding the eligibility of your merc, you lied to your own team, my team and to the ref's about it.
45 minutes after the scheduled time you were still trying to sneak Tap in.
Just get a grip man, and stop wasting everyone's time.
Goodbye.

Excuses. excuses. excuses.

I never lied to my team. WTF are you talking about? They know exactly what is going on.

I wasn't trying to "sneak Tap in". I OFFERED YOU 3 DIFFERENT MERCS. You said NO to ALL of them. We offered to 5v6 you. YOU SAID NO.

Stop misleading and play the damn game.

tagwolf says

I wasn't trying to "sneak Tap in". I OFFERED YOU 3 DIFFERENT MERCS. You said NO to ALL of them. We offered to 5v6 you. YOU SAID NO.

Stop misleading and play the damn game.

You didn't try to sneak him in? After you got denied using tap weeks before vs vexta? After you got told by zefram? Still when we were on server he was on your team and you typed ready?

Ref typed forfeit win for PP and we left why should we stay and hear more bullshit from you none of us are interested. You already wasted 50 minutes of our, casters and referees time yes it was YOU who wasted everyones time not US.

And it was the ref who said no to your 5v6.

Ypsi says

tagwolf says

I wasn't trying to "sneak Tap in". I OFFERED YOU 3 DIFFERENT MERCS. You said NO to ALL of them. We offered to 5v6 you. YOU SAID NO.

Stop misleading and play the damn game.

You didn't try to sneak him in? After you got denied using tap weeks before vs vexta? After you got told by zefram? Still when we were on server he was on your team and you typed ready?

Ref typed forfeit win for PP and we left why should we stay and hear more bullshit from you none of us are interested. You already wasted 50 minutes of our, casters and referees time yes it was YOU who wasted everyones time not US.

And it was the ref who said no to your 5v6.

I don't even remember who, if anyone merced for us vs vexta. Vexta played a good game against us and we didn't have these problems regardless if we did / didn't ask TAP to merc.

Let me make that clear. If we did ask TAP to merc, vexta played when we suggested another merc. I don't recall who merced or why and will need to pull up those rounds if NS2stats recorded them.

Vexta and us played a strong game and won 4-0 against us. We thanked them for the games and left without any drama.

YOU said no to 3 different mercs and left thinking you'd get an easy win.

TAP does not make or break our team. He's someone I've played with off and on for a year and he happened to be on at the time. When I asked ABH if he or pennil could play, he said he'd have to look them up.

I informed them TAP is in Div 2. Pelagir agreed and Zefram signed off. We had two other mercs you could have agreed to and didn't.

That's 3 mercs total you said no to and broke a rule written into the NSL that says teams cannot reject mercs in order to force a forfeit.

All of this, the timeline, the logs, the cast itself will be in the appeal.

Let me be clear. Disagreeing with a ref does not mean I do not respect them as a person. I was a ref myself. The point is this situation should never have happened in the first place.

Every attempt I've made for you to just drop it and play a fair game has been met with resistance. I don't care what you think of me personally. Is this really how your team wants to win?

TBH we would play (at least i would) any other team without hesitation your drama queen shit and your behavior during the match day just gives us no reason or interest in playing you.

And you still keep copying the same lines over and over again even when you know that is not true i see no point even trying to communicate with you anymore.

Ypsi says

TBH we would play (at least i would) any other team without hesitation your drama queen shit and your behavior during the match day just gives us no reason or interest in playing you.

And you still keep copying the same lines over and over again even when you know that is not true i see no point even trying to communicate with you anymore.

So are you!

Your team insulted us upon joining the server and then left. Your leader apologized for your behavior and now all of a sudden if singing a different tune.

Ignore the drama and focus on the game. I want to play you on level ground. Stop making excuses that ohhh, it was so dramatic, we don't want to play the game.

Settle it on the field. You're missing the whole point. This started to point out the problems with having one person have final say in all NSL matters and changing their mind multiple times, communication differences between refs, and general bad sportsmanship resulting in a forfeit when we had enough on and 3 mercs for you to choose from.

The reason I am repeating it is because that is what happened and you seem to be missing the point and avoiding playing an actual fair game for some reason.