Tachi says

I think that must be a new rule, to make matches more fair. For example Atrium. Aliens(team1) start in atrium, marines(team2) start in sub. Aliens win. Then team switch sides, and Marines(team1) start in Atrium again, which is the worst spawn on that map imo. Same with tram north/south spawns.

My point is if t1 spawns in atrium as alines, next round t2 should spawn in atrium as aliens as well.
I think admins can force spawns now with this:

sv_spawnteams , command to force teams to certain spawns on a map.

http://www.ensl.org/topics/1190

Looking for more exposure and discussion.

Wouldn't care that much, though I'd still like to see a week where it's random spawn. Part of the game for me is being able to adapt to various situations. Things too static would bore me.

Simba says

Wouldn't care that much, though I'd still like to see a week where it's random spawn. Part of the game for me is being able to adapt to various situations. Things too static would bore me.

I would rather adapt to my opponent rather than map random spawns.

This is also to address unfairness in certain maps where some spawns are stronger than others.

That's a part of the game to have such random spawns. + it makes easier both sides to prepare their strategies depending of the spawns if they are already in the know before the game starts. In my opinion, that shouldn't change except if you have defined spawns for each week (to make it as fair as possible) but it was tested last season and wasn't a real good idea to wait for the said spawns....

There is an admin command to make it possible.

Assuming we have a way to easily force the spawns, I love the idea of fixed spawns because it allows teams to focus on a strategy and ensures that both teams get a fair opportunity. There are spawns that are at least very different, if not worse, than the other spawns, and I don't think it's sporting for that to be decided differently for the two teams based on RNG. The tricks that marines use to figure out the alien spawn at the start are also pretty silly, as are the asymmetries in the spawn rules (Tram south spawn doesn't know which north spawn, but north spawn knows the exact south spawn).

Worth giving it a try for one or two of the weeks.

Simba says

Worth giving it a try for one or two of the weeks.

Agreed.

If you are going down this road, then it's probably best to have spawns announced ahead of time. Like "ok this week it's going to be Tram with Aliens in Server room and Marines Shipping spawns". That way both teams would have equal time to prepare for the specified spawns.

I do kind of like the random spawns though from round to round, it can shake things up and avoid static strategies and make watching the games less boring.

That was the intention Rant. The entire season would be announced with maps and spawns.

It will help teams concentrate their strategies. New teams and lower div teams will benefit. Premier can keep the random spawns if they like it. After all, you guys are distinguished by your teamwork and not individual skill.

Oh okay, excellent. That bit was unclear to me... carry on!

Like I said I think either option has upsides and downsides. Random spawns are definitely more exciting and really test teams on their spur of the moment decision and strategy making- I'm going to throw my vote into that hat.

we would /definitely/ need proper setup of the servers/maps though. I think this existed last time but no one configured the spawns properly ever, so you'd get teams resetting the game literally 20 times to try and get the correct spawns. It sucked.

rantology says

we would /definitely/ need proper setup of the servers/maps though. I think this existed last time but no one configured the spawns properly ever, so you'd get teams resetting the game literally 20 times to try and get the correct spawns. It sucked.

Unfortunately, it didn't depend of the servers but indeed, that was very very boring. But as stated by Rising above, with the new command, it should be easier during a match to setup that kind of stuff.

I think the only hitch would be that those commands are admin only I believe. Maybe the command can be moved to a security level everyone can use?

RisingSun says

I think the only hitch would be that those commands are admin only I believe. Maybe the command can be moved to a security level everyone can use?

That's right, I have no idea if a such thing can be setup to allow Referees and/or Shoutcasters to use this command.

If it's shine admin it can be set. You can put any console command on whatever level you want.

RisingSun says

If it's shine admin it can be set. You can put any console command on whatever level you want.

Probably but this is a sv_command, nothing related to Shine or something. Anyway, if that system is added for Season 5, that should be doable to setup differently the NSL Mod to allow this command to these said players.

Fixed spawns are extremely boring and predictable. Teams should be able to adapt to whatever spawns occur. Sure there are some spawns that are "weaker" than others, but 90% of the time the stronger team will win anyway.

Yeah I was thinking, how many times do you think teams have LOST 100% because of a bad spawn on summit. Not many if any...

RisingSun says

Premier can keep the random spawns if they like it. After all, you guys are distinguished by your teamwork and not individual skill.

Really? This is what you've learned the couple of times you've played with/against players like Herakles and myself? Just because we call for every single person on the field simultaneously in pugs/gathers, whilst playing our own game doesn't mean Premier players are solely determined by teamwork. Whilst a huge part of this game is the teamwork, a very large part is carried by individual skill, positioning, and decision-making which can't be done for you in most circumstances.

Golden says

RisingSun says

Premier can keep the random spawns if they like it. After all, you guys are distinguished by your teamwork and not individual skill.

Really? This is what you've learned the couple of times you've played with/against players like Herakles and myself? Just because we call for every single person on the field simultaneously in pugs/gathers, whilst playing our own game doesn't mean Premier players are solely determined by teamwork. Whilst a huge part of this game is the teamwork, a very large part is carried by individual skill, positioning, and decision-making which can't be done for you in most circumstances.

Wait what? only teamwork and no individual skill? :S So... if i save a RT against a skulk, or marine comes in, i take him down.. it was because of teamwork? Or his lack of teamwork? xD That's what i've read from Risingsuns post?

Isnt this game just like everything else? Like CS? Ofcourse if you stand in a corner, looking down at your rifle-barrel you're propably gonna loose, positioning, individualskill .. all those combined together then you are good, and if everybody in your team are that, you're gods!

And if Golden and Hera micromanages on gathers, from what i've seen and played people dont play for serious, always like having 1-2 jokers in your team, running around and freaking yoloing every lane, fucking up the other teammate.. so yeah, it's good to have Golden,Hera, or anybody who's got an idea how the game's played to command around, and yes.. everybody can be a jerk sometimes, but it's the freaking INTERNETZ :D

Everything here looks a bit out of subject now. That would be nice to keep talking about the various spawns. And not this boring debate about Premier division skill or whatever.

Golden says

Fixed spawns are extremely boring and predictable. Teams should be able to adapt to whatever spawns occur. Sure there are some spawns that are "weaker" than others, but 90% of the time the stronger team will win anyway.

I'm in the same boat as Golden. There really aren't any truly 'weak' spawn locations especially after they fixed Pipe on Veil so long ago. Certain spawns may have more favorable naturals but none of the spawns handicap a team to the point where its not manageable. Take tram for example... because of Titus karma, we always used to get south spawn marines and eventually preferred it over top spawn. To me this just feels like another handicap for teams who can't adapt strategy.

Regardless, I wouldn't be opposed to divs voting on which option they want. I just like the variation. :)

Is descent in season 5? I imagine if it is, some divisions might prefer spawns limited to north/south.

Simba says

Is descent in season 5? I imagine if it is, some divisions might prefer spawns limited to north/south.

Yes it is.

It's not really just about one spawn being preferable, it's also about both teams having the same spawn when they are aliens and same spawn when marines.

Personally I don't like the idea. I think random spawn throws up challenges for each team but also gives benefits to each team.

Oh and for the love of God leave descent alone. It is literally the best map partly BECAUSE of those base vents. They can be used as a GG button for marines as long as people play brainy (So it's not OP for marines, they have to actually work for it). Likewise, I guess aliens can use it.

Wob says

It's not really just about one spawn being preferable, it's also about both teams having the same spawn when they are aliens and same spawn when marines.

Personally I don't like the idea. I think random spawn throws up challenges for each team but also gives benefits to each team.

Oh and for the love of God leave descent alone. It is literally the best map partly BECAUSE of those base vents. They can be used as a GG button for marines as long as people play brainy (So it's not OP for marines, they have to actually work for it). Likewise, I guess aliens can use it.

I didn't say do anything to descent. Calm down big boy. I'm just saying it's clearly not as manageable for lower divisions who are focusing on much more on fundamentals and throwing in a vent to base that can't easily be entered by marines for cleansing just adds additional poo.

Just saying it might be worth letting lower divs choose to play only north/south on that map.

I personally love descent. One of my favorite maps. I feel at a level of play where marines aren't struggling over aiming (div 1 or premiere) those vents are trivial and make for excellent plays.

How about this. Since divisions are isolated, and we want consistent gameplay across the division, if an entire division wants to see descent isolated to north/south only, we can apply that to that division only for this season?

I would imagine we can run the same kind of vote for "fixed spawns" but it has to be a unanimous decision by all teams across a division. Since I don't see this as likely, I doubt Zefram will have to do the work of picking out the spawns.

@Premier players.

I understand that when you get to a certain level of team skill and coordination you enjoy the randomness. It is probably refreshing and if you want to keep it, go ahead.

The problem I have is spawns are found out with certainty through misuse of an unintentional mechanic. You can even do this without spending res at all. So really, you already know their spawn 2 seconds into the game. Tachi's change just makes it obvious a week before hand so you can practice spilts and specific strats/defense. As you have seen in gathers and lower div scrims, splits are messed up regularly and often, but, granted, it doesn't make or break a game most times.

The other side of this change is what I really want, that being each team having the same spawn and same advantages/disadvantages. The problem being you can't have an initial random spawn and then set spawns for the next round since one team knows ahead of time the spawns and the other does not.

Small things but I believe it's worth the effort. If the work for deciding spawns is all that is needed I am willing to do this and get the ok from the majority of the community or makes tweaks as needed.

I'll be honest I have 0 interest in coding something I have to constantly update weekly to force spawns.

What would be a smart way to handle it is to just have the spawns chosen the instant the map is loaded. Then its still 'random', but each team has pregame time to prepare for whatever and also both teams would have the same spawns.

@Dragon

Pelargir says

Vindaloo says

I would like to see spawns announced for each week in S5. I agree with set spawns and less random bullshit, strategies rcould be made. It's annoying to reset games to get the right spawns, so maybe dragon can code something like say "rdy shipping" rdy call for marines and it would set the spawns for the game.

sv_spawnteams. but players (Referees or Shoutcasters) should be admin on the said servers.

I thought the commands already exist? The problem was they were accessible to admins only.

Your idea is also a good compromise if this went to a league wide rule. I don't want to alienate 1 division, forcing an unwanted change on them just to suite the other divs.

Edit* Build 267 -sv_spawnteams , command to force teams to certain spawns on a map.