Spring says

If it doesn't have a straight purpose, if you think about it, it's more about you spamming every other thread about your viewmodel shenanigans that 99% of the people have already stopped caring about.

Nah, 99% of the people just don't wanna be insulted in the way that I do for standing up for fair play. Else they just don't even care about fair play at all and just like the advantages they get from unfair play. And then there are the rest that are completely oblivious to it.

Besides, I only commented on viewmodels in threads where it was part of the topic. Writing long detailed posts/replies is actually the opposite of spamming.

Such post, very deluded.

No view model = more space
View models = more reference points.

Both objective statements.

You can't see that because you're too hellbent on getting your own way.

I'm just curious, what unfair play are you referring to? The divisions? The viewmodels? The different male/female marines and how the rifles shake on male marine but not female?

All of these are very minor and are mostly personal preference. However, I'm always wanting fair play for divisions. The current division system is fine. So where are the complaints?

Yes, some teams do have huge skill gaps in terms of TEAMWORK, not aim/fading ability/etc. If you generally look at everyone's personal skill level, its all about the same in each division. Sure, there may be 1-2 players in a team that excel way more than others. That's common in any competitive game. But those 1-2 players don't win games by themselves.

If teams are losing against other teams, its because of teamwork. That's why teams need to scrim better teams to learn faster. To work on shit together as a team. It is generally a bad call, bad engagement, or lack of organization that makes teams lose. The primary reason most teams lose are from lack of organization. Bad engagements are the second most common reason why teams lose.

So no matter how we rearrange these teams in each division, splitting them up by region or what have you, you will still see teams losing in the same fashion.

I only glance on these forums but this shit is getting really stupid. I keep hearing tid bits from people about this crap on these forums and i just can't help but laugh. It's mostly about swalk talking about viewmodels and how unfair it is. Even though, its available for everyone to turn off/on. If someone has a viewmodel on and gets killed by another person without them on, how can you determine that the other player has the advantage and vice versa. Its ridiculous to read this shit. I've played with viewmodels on and off on both marines and aliens. I have noticed no difference. My accuracy did not increase at all on either side. I still land bites either with them on or off. I prefer them off on aliens though. Marines i leave them on. Just personal preference.

If you really want to talk about unfair play, enforce everyone to use the same hardware. Why should I use a 144 hz monitor at 200 fps when another guy can only use a 60hz monitor at 60 fps. Makes no sense, yea?

You're the delusional one here if you think people still give a damn.

I wish you good luck in your battle to force viewmodels.
But if you do manage to get it, can we get pistol macros back like back in the day?

We saw decline in general attitude in NS1 as well. More people left, more trolls had power. It was one biggest problem of late NS1. The line of "just funny trolling" and insulting people was blurry and in the end people insulted each other all the time. I wasn't proud to be part of that community which felt like community of 10 years old kids. I do hope admins will take strict policy to prevent this. Just because we are small community it doesn't mean general morals between human beings wouldn't apply.

Also Swalk you might want to ponder what one dude long ago said: "Wisest of them all is the one who knows that he doesn't know."

Wob says

No view model = more space
View models = more reference points.

Both objective statements.

You can't see that because you're too hellbent on getting your own way.

You got me there.

But I don't see the need for any reference points to the center of the screen when I've got a CROSSHAIR that tells me EXACTLY where the middle of the screen is. Again, it's not really an advantage to have viewmodels enabled, it is subjective if you feel the need for reference points or not.

schu says

I'm just curious, what unfair play are you referring to? The divisions? The viewmodels? The different male/female marines and how the rifles shake on male marine but not female?

If you really want to talk about unfair play, enforce everyone to use the same hardware. Why should I use a 144 hz monitor at 200 fps when another guy can only use a 60hz monitor at 60 fps. Makes no sense, yea?

The cases I'm refeering to includes the current div 1, the top division in the world. Not every team plays every other team in the group and the lowest seeded teams are favored by not having to play as many top seeded teams as the rest of the group. That mean the lowest seeded teams have an easier time aquiring points than teams that were seeded higher, because they are not matched against as strong opponents as the rest. Skill and game-execution should be the only factors when aquiring points, not what teams you match up against. The current top division group play is unfair to the top seeded teams. It's not about having equal skill level between the teams and eliminating skill gaps between teams. It's about having equal opponents, so every team in a group have equal hardship getting their points. Else the point system just breaks and you could end up with undeserving teams reaching semifinals because they had an easier time aquiring points than other teams. That is not fair play.

It doesn't really matter if it is an option to enable/disable viewmodels, it is an advantage to remove them because you get A LOT more view, specificly when the bite animation plays, hence why so many turn them off on aliens. That is unfair to those that do not want to play with them off. I don't want to play with them off and feel forced to do it anyway because it is allowed and it gives this advantage. I don't want to be at a disadvantage either, hence my frustration. It just shouldn't be allowed because of the advantage of the extra view.

You can't enforce hardware for a PC game, that would be counter productive and limit some players from participating at all. This just makes no sense, especially considering the community's size. This is PC gaming, hardware and fps will vary. But you can on the other hand enforce software that give advantages, so everyone are at least equal on that front. Just because it's a moddable PC game doesn't mean you should allow every mod out there that people request. Allow mods that gives convenience, ban mods that give advantages. Don't confuse advantages with convenience. HUD mods are merely convenient and doesn't really give you any advantages, while removing viewmodels impose an advantage of giving you a lot of extra viewspace when you need it the most; when you bite during melee combat.

Tane says

Also Swalk you might want to ponder what one dude long ago said: "Wisest of them all is the one who knows that he doesn't know."

That quote is by "Lau Tzu" @ "Tao Te Ching" - right? Great book anyway. Takes 30 mins to read and a lifetime to truly understand.

I don't know everything, but I know what I can see and I am not seeing a world that is in balance.

swalk says

and I am not seeing a world that is in balance.

yea right... The gap between rich and poor widens, global warming is becoming a major problem and on top of that the world will soon be overpopulated. OH and yes, The division 1 teams in NS2 are not balanced out the way swalk would want them to be

I was referring to Socrates but Lau Tzu could have said something similiar as well.

swalk says

Competitive is not the same as professional. Even an amateur league can be competitive.

I've complained when the competitive enviornment have been disturbed by unfairness. I'm a sucker for fair play, that's my motive. It pisses me off when fair play isn't considered the most important factor in a competitive league and you've managed to make the TOP DIVISION in the world NON-competitive.

You pointed out the good thing in your previous posts. Fun.
What you don't understand that this is a game, people should be playing the game to have fun. Of course fairness point is important and shouldn't be in any way ignored. But there comes a time fun and fair play don't go along. What do we decide in such a case? You have your answer by looking at the divisions.

swalk says

I don't get mad because you don't pick MY ideas, I get mad when you simply piss on competitive play. If "democracy" of the teams pisses on competitive fair play, honourable admins should overrule it or even better; not even let unfair setups be a choice that the teams can pick. Besides afaik, it was a 7v5 vote, really tight vote. You should really wake up and see my actions for what they really are.

So you clearly stated that what people want in a such small community matters not as long as fair play prevails? Yes, it was 7 vs. 5 votes but you know what. People wanted this choice to be made, it's been voted and we went for what they decided. In the 5 teams that voted the other format, I count only one which was 100% against what we went for. It's been decided in accordance to what people are looking for: fun.

swalk says

I encourage every project that can bring more fair official games or help players in the community, I don't complain for the sake of complaining.

You complain once a decision doesn't go your way. Let's ask current and past admins, it'll be confirmed and it's pretty obvious. Of course you don't complain about everything, you'd be ignored if so. We have this topic, let's use it to talk about you, instead of simply ignore you which would lead nowhere. A guy that complains about everything wouldn't have such a favor from people.

swalk says

You complain that I am disrespectful towards unfair behavior in a competitive enviornment, but you directly encourage people to insult me, even in the same post. What is this for a kind of view? And you talk about me contradicting myself(though you were incorrect in that statement). I find this pretty hilarious.

Do I? Read the topic again. But yes, either way people are just tired of you and so am I. I thought Zefram was wrong but it seems he wasn't.

swalk says

I will never respect unfair "competitive" play. That is nothing personal against you or any other admin. I don't hold any personal grudges for your decisions, even if I strongly and vocally disagree with the decisions. Make a league based on fair play with strict ruling; you will see me naturally stop complaining and only my encouragement would remain.

As long as that isn't the case, you will be freed of my ideas and opinions. Because apparently I am an asshole for hating on unfair play. Have it your way.

I hope so, otherwise it'd be more than an issue. You don't know any of the admins, apart one or two.
Disagreeing with something? I'm fine with it but there's limits that shouldn't be reached. And no, we're not looking for your approval anyway.

Swalk Im sorry but I really don't know how you can be so obstinate with just that so little thing.

You are writting pages and pages just for showing people that you are right ? And maybe you are, but that's has no importance, it's just a little option, who cares ?? And everybody can activate it for playing without view models... So even if this is ""cheating"" everybody can, see your error ?

Lambo, you bring the popcorn and chips, i bring the beer? Let's get this party starteeeed!

Man this thread is great *grabs popcorn*

Tane says

We saw decline in general attitude in NS1 as well. More people left, more trolls had power. It was one biggest problem of late NS1. The line of "just funny trolling" and insulting people was blurry and in the end people insulted each other all the time. I wasn't proud to be part of that community which felt like community of 10 years old kids. I do hope admins will take strict policy to prevent this. Just because we are small community it doesn't mean general morals between human beings wouldn't apply.

I was never a part of ns1 but this attitude has caused complications or even killed several other games. I view trolling as an innocent act to bring out laughs but like you said, the line between trolling and purposely insulting is incredibly thin now a days. It'll never stop, both because people are overall just too reluctant and will never stop unless their thoughts is a reality.


Ryssk says

Lambo, you bring the popcorn and chips, i bring the beer? Let's get this party starteeeed!

I'm not all for consuming alcohol anymore, the chips will have to do.

Wob says

Pelagir for head admin!!

Please no

Eto says

Ryssk says

Lambo, you bring the popcorn and chips, i bring the beer? Let's get this party starteeeed!

I'm not all for consuming alcohol anymore, the chips will have to do.

So you live in celibacy right now then? :)

Ryssk says

Eto says

Ryssk says

Lambo, you bring the popcorn and chips, i bring the beer? Let's get this party starteeeed!

I'm not all for consuming alcohol anymore, the chips will have to do.

So you live in celibacy right now then? :)

the best way to live, innit mejt.

swalk says

Wob says

No view model = more space
View models = more reference points.

Both objective statements.

You can't see that because you're too hellbent on getting your own way.

You got me there.

But I don't see the need for any reference points to the center of the screen when I've got a CROSSHAIR that tells me EXACTLY where the middle of the screen is. Again, it's not really an advantage to have viewmodels enabled, it is subjective if you feel the need for reference points or not.
.

Having two distinct points helps the human brain interpret and anticipate time/distance from other relative objects. This then aids to subconscious muscle memory into making more accurate and precise movements. This is the added benefit of having view models as well as a crosshair.

You are right that it is subjective if you feel the need for reference points BUT AT THE EXPENSE OF HAVING MORE VIEW SPACE. And this is how your view point is also subjective in that some people would prefer having more view space AT THE EXPENSE OF HAVING MORE REFERENCE POITNS because they value it more personally.

Different people have different preferences. The objective benefit of either one or the other is not across the board, it affects different people differently through their subjective interpretation. It has qualitative and quantitative qualities which can not be outlandishly compared and discarded because of one person's continuously vigorous campaigning.

It's similar to saying regen vs cara fade.

Just lock the thread already, this is cancer.

Seb says

Just lock the thread already, swalk is cancer.

Fixed.

About Division 1:

From the NSL's Mission Statement:

The vision of the Natural Selection League (NSL) is to gather Natural Selection 2 players for international organized play. At its very core, we would simply like games to be played, in the hopes that this fosters tangible and meaningful relationships among its participants. We realize that its participants span the range of commitment, skill, and time zones and will do everything possible to cater to everyone’s needs and create the most enjoyable experience.

The decision to design Division 1 as we have it now is in accordance not only with the aboves statement, but also with the majority of teams partaking in that same Division.

With the current number of teams the quantity and quality of enjoyable games needed to be traded off with what is discussed as "fairness" earlier in this thread. Said fairness is undoubtly a high value. Designing Division 1 like this was not an easy call, which is exactly why each team got contacted and asked about it.

About viewmodels:

This topic had been exhaustively discussed in several(!) threads and had boiled down to people trying to convince each other of an opinion the other party is not likely ever to accept.

That itself would not be a problem. However hijacking otherwise useful threads, people feeling offended, and people bashing each others heads in, is a problem. To be precise: it damages the image of the NSL and the atmosphere between its players.

If someone interested in competitive NS2 visits this homepage that player will be happy to find a helpful thread about NS(+) settings. A thread full of mudslinging instead, will cause - at best - irritation. So, if you are not able to discuss properly you can bicker somewhere else.

This is why this thread gets closed and any threads evolving similarly as well. If they keep spawning we won't hesitate to ban involved persons.

I want to say that I agree with Tane. I didn't like the behavior of late NS1 comp scene either. I can't really remember that well anymore but I'm sure I could have done a lot more as an admin.

The problem with more or less constant trolling is that you end up saying offensive things without realizing how offensive they are to some people. And you cultivate a culture of stupid behavior. I can't say I have been immune from this disease. Just because insulting is OK in some other game or community doesn't mean you need to bring it here. To me at least NS2 era of NSL looks a lot more mature than the NS1 in this regard. We all have a choice. Especially ex-admins should show example.

I understand in-game people screw up and there are emotions involved. But there's no reason to misbehave towards the opposite team or random other people on forums when you have plenty of time to think what you want to say.

I think it is important that ENSL stays as a group where new players can come and play fun games without having to tolerate bad behaviour. Young people, especially teenagers, pick up habits from their environment without always questioning them. I would know because I have got some bad habits myself.

Empathy and perspective are important skills in life. Cultivate them.

I can't really comment on other things here because I don't really understand what's going on regarding admin decisions etc. Sometime admins make bad decisions that cause havoc, sometimes they make good decisions which people hate for useless reasons. A think the latter is much more likely (and this happens in almost all institutions not just gaming).

edit: Added some and fixed some.