Robby says

Maybe we could have two gathers; competitive and casual. If someone wants to gather to actually practice while they can't practice with their own team (or don't yet have a team) it would be pretty pointless if some people play it as a pub game. But at the same time, some people gather *only* to play casually yet to get away from the rookies of the pub servers. Neither of these groups are wrong and both of them deserve to play as they see fit. So, maybe there should be two gather-pages for different purposes. I don't see why not. Would keep the groups separate and ensure that both enjoy gathering more. Just make a copy of the files for the current gather, put it into a separate folder on the server, do the same with any potential databases, give them different names, maybe "Comp-Gather" and "Fun-Gather", and add a button for the second gather at the top menu.

Make a team, or make a mix that will scrim a team. Your solution cannot happen due to low population.

I concur with Simba, unless you get more gatherers and a bigger community, such a system will never work. Quite the contrary, it'd split even more those signing up.

Pelargir says

I concur with Simba, unless you get more gatherers and a bigger community, such a system will never work. Quite the contrary, it'd split even more those signing up.

I see your point. But this system *could* actually bring more gatherers.

I'd like to mention some other things that are worth a thought. Some people would perhaps enjoy fewer gathers as long as they're more to their liking. You may have noticed that a lot of people just sit on the gather page without actually joining. Maybe they would if they had a gather more to their liking to look forward to. There's plenty of comp players who never play gathers due to the issues raised in this thread. So *not* having such a system is possibly scaring more people away who would otherwise play. Maybe they would join a comp-gather if one existed, without taking players away from the fun-gather. Even a player with a relatively low skill such as i have often refrained from joining gathers due to lacking skill/seriousness in the members currently signed up at certain times, as i feel i learn nothing from playing with them. And i have much more fun playing with skilled players.

Schu is hardly the only person who'd probably spend *more* time in gathers if there were ones of different seriousness levels to choose from. Dual gathers could actually make them more popular.

Also, in terms of joining a team as a solution to this problem; quite a few members have announced themselves as available without getting any requests, for months. Members with far greater skill than i. There's not enough commanders to make more teams. So some of us are forced to remain in the gathers.

I dont see a reason not to TRY 2 different gathers. If the players get split too much just change it back.

Just add another Vote to it, once gather starts before vote captians, have players vote for the "Style / Type" of gather it should be, less work, solves the issue.

I still don't understand the idea of a competitive gather. People play gathers to have fun and/or work on individual skill. You can do both at the same time. Its possible.... even when you are losing... but comp players somehow got the idea that losing in the gather means they cannot practice. Guess what? Every single thing you do in a gather can be considered practice. Positioning, aim, map awareness, etc. What is stopping anyone from working on these things?

The only thing you cannot build/work on in a gather is team chemistry since... well you guessed it... its not a scrim. I hardly gather anymore because of all the butt-hurt people (admins included) that play in gathers and then rage at their team because people messed up. It's quite sad. This community is too small for this mentality. Lets just play videogames and have fun.

Going back to the other side of the proposed idea.... "Fun/Casual Gather". Wtf is that? A gather where people don't care about winning? Even casuals enjoy winning. They just rage a lot less than some individuals from our "comp scene" when they do not get the outcome they desire.

tl;dr The split gather idea is stupid. People just need to relax a little.

joshhhy says

I still don't understand the idea of a competitive gather. People play gathers to have fun and/or work on individual skill. You can do both at the same time. Its possible.... even when you are losing... but comp players somehow got the idea that losing in the gather means they cannot practice. Guess what? Every single thing you do in a gather can be considered practice. Positioning, aim, map awareness, etc. What is stopping anyone from working on these things?

The only thing you cannot build/work on in a gather is team chemistry since... well you guessed it... its not a scrim. I hardly gather anymore because of all the butt-hurt people (admins included) that play in gathers and then rage at their team because people messed up. It's quite sad. This community is too small for this mentality. Lets just play videogames and have fun.

Going back to the other side of the proposed idea.... "Fun/Casual Gather". Wtf is that? A gather where people don't care about winning? Even casuals enjoy winning. They just rage a lot less than some individuals from our "comp scene" when they do not get the outcome they desire.

tl;dr The split gather idea is stupid. People just need to relax a little.

The "competative" gather would still have potential to attract players not currently intrested in the skill level of gathers. In a sense splitting the gather players could also reduce the conflict between certain players who dislkie eachother by having them play the game separately at different seriousness levels. I still agree people need to relax a little (including myself).

The thing why people want to play gathers on a higher level is that it has become the only source of actually playing ns2 for them. I know some people still have their teams to scrim with, but others don't, so I actually understand the idea of having a 2nd gather

joshhhy says

I still don't understand the idea of a competitive gather. People play gathers to have fun and/or work on individual skill. You can do both at the same time. Its possible.... even when you are losing... but comp players somehow got the idea that losing in the gather means they cannot practice. Guess what? Every single thing you do in a gather can be considered practice. Positioning, aim, map awareness, etc. What is stopping anyone from working on these things?

i completely agree, i play pubs to practice aim/walljumping positioning etc, and when i die i always have some critique of what i could have done better. watching high level players i see them have the same regrets about certain decisions theyve made and how they could have improved. even when you lose you can ALWAYS try something new, or test an idea. Seems to be working for me.

joshhhy says

The only thing you cannot build/work on in a gather is team chemistry since... well you guessed it... its not a scrim. I hardly gather anymore because of all the butt-hurt people (admins included) that play in gathers and then rage at their team because people messed up. It's quite sad. This community is too small for this mentality. Lets just play videogames and have fun.

yes let's play video games and have fun! Come join the Gathers dudEEEEE your ideas in the first paragraph and 2nd don't align

joshhhy says

Going back to the other side of the proposed idea.... "Fun/Casual Gather". Wtf is that? A gather where people don't care about winning? Even casuals enjoy winning. They just rage a lot less than some individuals from our "comp scene" when they do not get the outcome they desire.

honestly i agree this split gather maybe could have worked 3 years ago, but let's FACE it guys this GAME IS DEAD and this idea is THREE WHOLE YEARS too late

phonee says

honestly i agree this split gather maybe could have worked 3 years ago, but let's FACE it guys this GAME IS DEAD and this idea is THREE WHOLE YEARS too late

lol

joshhhy says

The split gather idea is stupid. People just need to relax a little.

Expecting people to listen to you when you flat-out tell them how to feel about something is a lot more stupid than trying to keep people of different mind-sets apart. If you've got some magical solution to calming hysterical try-hards down while simultaneously keeping the half-drunk/half-high casuals from trolling the shit out of matches i think all of us would appreciate to hear it. Until then we should maybe try something more practical.

joshhhy says

I still don't understand the idea of a competitive gather. People play gathers to have fun and/or work on individual skill. You can do both at the same time. Its possible.... even when you are losing... But comp players somehow got the idea that losing in the gather means they cannot practice.

Winning or losing means nothing in a gather. And the try-hards know this well. That's not really what Schu is complaining about. It's all about the efficiency of the time you spend playing. And that efficiency isn't gonna be very high unless *everyone* in the current gather takes it seriously enough to actually mimic a real season match: listen and communicate, which a lot of people don't as they've been playing gathers for so long that it's considered even less official than pub-play. This isn't helping people with talent. I think people need to be reminded sometimes that the ENSL isn't some casual server host. This is supposed to be the supreme stage for competitive NS play. And i completely agree with Schu that most gathers are decent at best in terms of competitive spirit. For its own sustainability the ENSL should cater to players getting better and better. Clearly, considering threads such as this one (and the millions of complaints everyone have heard about gathers for years), the gathers is one part that maybe could be improved. We should mold the system to the needs of the community, and not the other way around. Thus we should listen to the try-hards as well when they have legitimate complaints. My idea about dual gathers is just one idea out of many we could try. In the end, something *practical* has to be done. And telling people how to feel when playing a gather is neither practical nor feasible. Everyone has different needs and desires with the time they spend here. If some people are gonna get pissed when someone plays a gather match and don't give a fuck, i frankly think they ought to, because they shouldn't have to play with such people in a place like this.

joshhhy says

I hardly gather anymore because of all the butt-hurt people (admins included) that play in gathers and then rage at their team because people messed up. It's quite sad. This community is too small for this mentality. Lets just play videogames and have fun.

I think you misunderstand why they're butthurt though. It's not about losing. It's about wasting yet another hour on a match with team-mates that who joined a gather despite having no interest in doing their part for the outcome of the match, showing no respect and doing fuck all. It doesn't matter if you're there to practice or just have fun. NS2 is still a team-game and you have to do your part or you might as well go wank. Even people who just wants fun dislike this behavior.

I think everyone agree with you when you say that some people need to chill the fuck out. Whether you're the best in the world or a rookie a bad temper does nothing for you. But we all know how impossible it is to calm hysterical people down. Why not get these people to use a separate comp-gather then, to keep them away from the people who just want a fun match or hang out? Some people want to play gathers but have stopped doing so completely because they're tired of people not taking it seriously. And then there's probably another half who are tired of the try-hards. If there's a chance we can create a separate gather specifically intended to have a more professional tone, like a scrim feeling but in gather style, i think it's fair to assume it eventually could become even more popular than the current casual-like gather system is. A gather where the rules to follow the orders of the commander/captain etc are extra tough and where breaking them results in temp-bans. A *lot* of people don't take gather seriously enough to even follow the orders of their commander. Shouldn't these people be see consequences just as much as the people who lose their tempers and piss all over the place?

joshhhy says

Going back to the other side of the proposed idea.... "Fun/Casual Gather". Wtf is that? A gather where people don't care about winning? Even casuals enjoy winning..

I don't see where a person would translate the word "casual" into "lacking desire to win". You've got it all wrong if you think that's what i mean with the word casual. It's casual as in "there for the fun" and opposed to competitive which means "there for the practice". Two very different groups with very different mind-sets who often spark flames when mixed.

joshhhy says

They just rage a lot less than some individuals from our "comp scene" when they do not get the outcome they desire.

And that rage could be moved away and from the people who just want to have fun and seen lowered as well in the other gather due to the two groups no longer having to mix every time they play.

maxamus says

Just add another Vote to it, once gather starts before vote captians, have players vote for the "Style / Type" of gather it should be, less work, solves the issue.

That's a good idea. There would have to be some very clear explanations available on the page that ensures that everyone truly understands the difference of the two types though.

All people play gathers to have fun. The subtle difference between the two groups coined "casual" and "competitive" is that the casuals play for their own fun without respect for each other, and the competitive ones play under the pretense of at least trying to use teamwork.

There are clear examples of people clearly going against the wishes of 4/5 other members of the team. Either these people need to be named, shamed, and banned to push them into pub servers, or separate the gathers.

I'd be happy if people just showed up on time. Having to fill 20 minutes of running around a map every gather for my stream is frustrating.

Even if you split gathers there would still be complainers, then what?

Gathers by ELO, by division, by how many hours of NS you played?


pls.

I completely agree crazy.

What I think we need is stricter bans on people who clearly do not listen to 4/5 people on a team

Cr4zy says

Gathers by ELO, pls.

+ fucking 1.

Cr4zy says

Even if you split gathers there would still be complainers, then what? Gathers by ELO, by division, by how many hours of NS you played?

If UW makes NS2 as huge as they're hoping to, maybe some day. But right now that's clearly going too far.

This is bigger than complainers. If the current gather system is putting people off, something should be done. Skill isn't as important as trying your best and respecting your fellow team-members. I used to learn a lot more in a couple of hours with Herakles and Zero-Master in the rare good gathers we used to have by just following their instructions than i did in months playing gathers with people who didn't take it seriously. So i think that even low-skill players would acclimate fast and learn a lot faster if the gathers were more professional. Thus a casual-gather could potentially be rendered obsolete. I bet most people who turn to ENSL expect a professional experience anyway, even if it's tough. Getting stuck in casual gathers is hardly living the e-sports dream. We won't know if any of these plans will work unless we try some though.

wob says

What I think we need is stricter bans on people who clearly do not listen to 4/5 people on a team.

Well that would basically be the consequences of not following the rules of the comp-gather, i imagine. So in a way that is turning the current gather into a more competitive gather. But ideally that rule would never be broken anyway in a comp-gather as everyone who participated in it were doing so for the very reason of getting away from people who'd otherwise break that rule. Anyway, people who want gathers to be more professional would probably rejoice at either or being done. I can't speak for the other half. But again, this is ENSL. If you want casual fun, go play on the Thirsty Onos. They have a TS server too.

A problem with gathers becoming more professional would be how orders would be delegated. It could come from the captain, the commander, a player who's practically a field-com, or the otherwise most experienced player in the team. The best person for the job isn't always voted captain. There's also the ever-present concern of a non-leading player sharing an idea mid-game; should they be listened to, or even be allowed? Maybe there will come a time when we'd need a more structured approach to leadership integrated into the gather system. ELO is the primary rank system we use now. But the player with the highest ELO may not always want to give orders, and/or be good at it. So maybe there could at least be an extra setting in your gather profile to switch "Field-Commander" on and off? Having a field-commander on each side is oftentimes more important than having a good field-player on each side, and the best field-players are often voted captains. I think it could be fruitful to be able to see which currently signed up gatherers that have field-com experience.

Golden says

my stream.

just invite those 3 people to your home and entertain them yourself while waiting for the gather to start B)

BearJankins says

Golden says

my stream.

just invite those 3 people to your home and entertain them yourself while waiting for the gather to start B)

tbhj fam, you got rekt! no salt pls

In all seriousness. If ppl would just listen from time to time during gathers, the games would be far better. Having a field comm is great, but if the calls aren't being followed it doesn't make any difference in the end.

How i used to view gathers:
Played quite often, step above pub play, not to serious, but serious enough to get a good game, team work, coordination and communication. Fun to play as everyone was helpful, not alot of BM, but "Fun jokes" playful.

How i view them now:
Utter fucking bullshit, little girls crying over the little things, that dont even matter, Jump on a server to watch a gather being played in the hope that its improved. Nope, same players, same shit.
Jump on the gather page in hope something has changed, Nope same shit, same players.

What i dont get, is after all these years, the only thing that has changed with gathers, is the downhill track. There is alot of players that a turned away by this Drama, its not needed? is it?

I always thought gathers was a place for players to "Gather" and play in a fun, semi-serious manner. a step above pub play. without the crap.

How can we improve this? the little kid in me says, GROW THE FUCK UP, STOP BITCHING AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME.

The adult in me says: Can we not all just get along? and play the gather the way its meant to be played? semi-serious? less trolling? maybe one day.

TLDR; I saw a unicorn and it was magic.

Gathers sound terrible, you're right to never want to play them again.

Sardine says

Gathers sound terrible, you're right to never want to play them again.

No wonder Onehit quit

maxamus says

How i used to view gathers:
Played quite often, step above pub play, not to serious, but serious enough to get a good game, team work, coordination and communication. Fun to play as everyone was helpful, not alot of BM, but "Fun jokes" playful.

How i view them now:
Utter fucking bullshit, little girls crying over the little things, that dont even matter, Jump on a server to watch a gather being played in the hope that its improved. Nope, same players, same shit.
Jump on the gather page in hope something has changed, Nope same shit, same players.

You have no idea my friend. When was was it that you viewed gathers as described above? 3 years ago?

OH, WAIT............
.............................
.............................

BUT WAIT, gathers were dead until a year ago? Now how does this make sense? Played quite often, are you kidding me? The gather community has grown larger than it has ever been, and still, there are people like you max, who don't see it, who only see what they want to see, who judge without knowing ANYTHING ABOUT GATHERS. Like what the actual fuck. I mean, fine, play a few gathers and say they're bad, there's too much bm, or skill level is too high or too low, that would be fine.
BUT
YOU, my dear max, you are very very very prejudiced and it makes me soooooooo angry when people talk shit about things THAT THEY DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!11231hialsuködb

PLEASE GROW UP
Or play a gather, it might help you cure the "Utter fucking bullshit (little girls crying over the little things, that dont even matter)" IN YOUR BRAIN
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHASLÖDJHSDHI111!!111

maxamus says

is the downhill track. There is alot of players that a turned away by this Drama, its not needed? is it?

PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE

BearJankins says

people like you max

unrelated to quote I agree with bower

I will happily admit that i have not played a gather in about 8+ months, but that being said, i still check the gather page, i still hop on the servers to spec, and all its is, is the same crap.

Now it could be that i just jumped on at the wrong time, or just view things different. But sorry, this is just me saying how i view them, this is my opinion after all? If i am wrong, then great! i want to be wrong! i would love nothing more than to jump on and play a few gathers, but all i see is this drama, that i have very little time for when i am at home, makes for good reading while at work tho, thanks.

And as for gathers growing in the last year?? What are you smoking? all i see is the same 25-30 players?!?!?! how is that growing?! infact i reckon that the "Gathers" have lost more players in the last year? again correct me if i am wrong, please do, like i said, i want to be wrong, i hope i am, but from what i see, is the same shit, same player count, yes a few new players to gathers, but still around the same 25-30 players.

And yes, if a new player comes to ENSL.org, creates an account, wants to play a gather has no idea what it is etc, signs up, only for something to go wrong, re-gather and loses his spot? off course i have not see this happen, but i wouldnt be supprised if it has already?

Anyhow, sorry to make you Mad, not my intentions, but i am 100% sure there is others that view gathers like this and avoid them.

I always thought hat gathers are a more organized form of pub play.
There threads in the UWE and steam forum wich invite players to join.

And you whining here about some players dont have div1 skill?
No wonder that gathers are dead with this mentality.

I'm actually suprised this thread is so active, I think many people in the community have read this and stepped up their game.

In the last week, from the gathers I've played, we've had members of Godar come and play. More NS1 players (phone) come to join the gathers. We've even had titus members in on the action. The teamwork has improved dramatically from when I created this thread. I'm not saying it's perfect. And it never will be, but it's getting much better.

As far as shit talking...you can't take that away from people. If shit talking were a bannable offense I'd probably uninstall right now. I rarely do shit talk while in game, it's usually after a game.....but still.

I've really been impressed though. Mega still doesn't listen and does what he wants but he has down syndrome and he can't help that.

I do like the idea of a "split gather". Some people say it could divide the community even more. I think it could expand it. Grab some of the "no rookies pub" players off that server and play in the "casual" gather. Maybe they'll even move up to the try hard mode. Who knows. It won't hurt to try it out at least.

I can honestly say if the gathers were split into "casual" and/or "try hard" I would be far more likely to participate in them... at the moment, what you get with a gather seems very unpredictable and thats what puts me off... sometimes I want to learn and try to improve... other times I just want to chill and have fun... with 2 separate gathers I could queue up for the one I'm in the mood for.

schu says

Mega has down syndrome