Aphex unfairly forced to forfeit a match.

tagwolf
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12 April 2014 - 19:03 -03
#1
I (we as a team) would like to post this as a complaint against the current end result of the match Perfect Peckers vs Aphex which ended in a 'forfeit' win for Perfect Peckers. I would like to argue that team Aphex was unfairly forced a forfeit when we had 5 players online from our team and one merc tap from table of six (also a div 2 team).

Zefram, decided to override the rules and disallowed Tap to play. Which is fine and completely within the rules. I consider it in bad taste to do disallow Tap as he is playing on a div 2 team. However, we as a team still had 5 players online, on the server and ready to play. We should, at the very least have been allowed to play a 5v6 instead of forced a forfeit.

You can see we had everyone online and ready to play from Ren's stream which can be seen here:
http://www.twitch.tv/ren26/b/519294940
tagwolf
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12 April 2014 - 19:09 -03
#2
We also were able to field a second merc IMMEDIATELY. Which the second PP heard, they all left.

In general bad sportsmanship. We just wanted to play a game.

The main problem I have is multiple refs saying different things. But this doesnt excuse the general BM when we just want to play a game for fun.

I hope this never happens to any of you.
nezz
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12 April 2014 - 19:22 -03
#3
tap is arguably better then most div 2 players/teams so i can understand that judgement call. The fact you weren't aloud to get a merc after astounshes me.

I wouldn't of allowed a 5 v 6.

bm
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12 April 2014 - 23:02 -03
#4
we scheduled this match in your favour even though most of us want to go out on saturday evening.
we didn't whine on forums when you refused to reschedule us, we had 8 players ready to play from 15 minutes before scheduled time.
You showed up 20 min late without an aprovable merc, or a backup merc, even though we had been negotiating with you since like an hour before the match when you asked us to reschedule.
Seriously got noone to blame but yourself.
Zefram
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12 April 2014 - 23:19 -03
#5
@tagwolf‌ I'm not really sure why you felt a public post on the official forums was necessary, considering you already opened a thread on the NSL forums (this is an NSL matter after all) AND I personally was in contact with you BEFORE and AFTER the match events to resolve these issues, most of which you failed to share in your post AND to your team members. But, as someone who is allowed to carry a hefty responsibility within the community, I will always answer for my "war crimes" and decisions. The tribunal begins...

You contacted me today, the morning of the match, less than 2 hours before the scheduled time, and asked if your team could have an extension because 2 members of your team were "MIA" (Note that reschedules must happen at least 24 hours in advance). I said no and that your team had to play the match within 10 days of the original match date (not scheduled date) or find mercs. I have said no to reschedule extensions request from every team. Those teams range from Premier to Division 4. Your team was not singled out. Match dates have been posted for almost 2 months and for the most part you know the general time frame of when matches ought to be played, 2 to 3 months in advance.

Let's be clear though, you scheduled this match at a time where your team was unable to field 6 players.

But that's ok. Unexpected things happen in real life and teams are allow to use substitutes (mercs) for matches. Teams in Division 2 and lower can use, not 1, but up to 2 mercs. This is where the drama of Tap comes in. Before the match occurred, Perfect Pecker's captain, ABadHabit, contacted me, about Aphex using Tap as a merc. The team was concerned that Tap would be a carry for Aphex. Saying no to a merc because of skill level is perfectly acceptable.

I felt their concerns are valid. Although Tap is on a division 2 team, he's got a record of playing on a high Division 1 team and recently has tried out for a European Premier division team. The main reason why Table for Six was placed into Division 2 at the start of the season was because Tap elevated the team play to a Division 2 level. This isn't to take away from the work that Table for Six has put in, but Tap is a huge force on that team. To say that he is an acceptable Division 2 merc is silly and would be unfair for teams playing against him as a substitute. The merc rule was written in a way where eligibility for mercing wasn't clearly decided directly by divisional lines, but the skill level of the player. It's absolutely ridiculous that you AND Tap would think he would be acceptable considering his history as a player and his own remarks about his skill level. Remember, less than a week ago, he tried out for a PREMIER team. That's all the evidence we need to understand how I and he perceives himself as a player. It wasn't anything personal. Just protecting fair play.

I denied him as a merc for this match for those reasons. I made it VERY CLEAR to you and him that he would not be allowed to play. And what happened? I get bombarded with Steam messages about my idiocy, unfairness, heaped with direct and personal insults, while my team is involved in a scrim. I decide to log off to stop the barrage and concentrate on the scrim. In between rounds, I decide to check up on your match. Lo and behold, Tap is about to merc for your team. Apparently, you decided not to mention my decision on his eligibility to play to any of our referees (Pelargir and Unique) and tried to sneak him into the match.

Your messages to me after the match were dripping with sarcasm about sportsmanship and fairness, but let's really take a look at what happened. Your team failed to show up with an appropriate number of players and when a merc was denied by me, the League Admin, you fail to notify the referees on hand and just blame confusion that they are allowed? Is it sportsmanlike to fail to procure a team or to try to circumvent a ruling and rules?

Not only that, after speaking with a member of your team, you even failed to notify your own teammates of what happened before the match and that my final ruling was to have it rescheduled and replayed. You and I had direct messages through Steam minutes after Perfect Peckers left the server, but your team still messaged me with complaints hours after the fact.

Let's be fair and share the entirety of events and not just share the parts where it looks like I caused some harm and hardship towards your team.


TL:DR Aphex couldn't field a team in within an appropriate time frame. Still gets to reschedule the match.
www.twitch.tv/Zefram0911
Zefram
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13 April 2014 - 00:18 -03
#6
About that rule about playing 6v5, that's in the old rules that the league does not use anymore since I drafted a new set of rules that was up for community debate before the season started. Playing 6v5 would be sheer idiocy and waste of time.
www.twitch.tv/Zefram0911
Satyr
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13 April 2014 - 00:34 -03
#7
tag got #BTFO
Gibs
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13 April 2014 - 00:38 -03
#8

Satyr says

tag got #BTFO



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
nezz
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13 April 2014 - 04:18 -03
#9
so you're telling me these guys get to schedule again. while onfire vs envy don't?
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 04:37 -03
#10
Any delays were imparted by the refs. I asked multiple times which server to join and TOLD TO WAIT.

We were on the server the second that information was given. In which we were there for 13 minutes before PP left the SECOND we suggested a different merc.

People can spin it any way they want. But when PP's leader is apologizing to me in the background for how his team is acting and then turning around trying to get an easy 4 points without playing, I find that in bad taste.

I also find it in bad taste for Zefram to "nudge" a team in any direction as far as approving mercs or not. ABadHabit has ZERO issues before he talked with zef.

After that when we heard of zefram's decision to cause a forfeit if we played with TAP, we immediately requested to use a different merc, "Fiskbit". The second that happened, their entire team left.

I have the chatlogs, the videos, etc to prove this timeline and if you need it broken down then let me know.

Just last week we played GCC and allowed them 2 mercs. 1 who is AT the skill level of TAP and div 1.

We could have whined and thrown a hissy fit and left the server in order to try to get 4 points. We didn't. We approved the mercs and played.

So I repeat, per zef's instructions, we are ready to reschedule this match and all's we want to do is play.

If you consider me questioning why 3 different ref's give different responses "stirring up drama", so be it. The system obviously has it's flaws as will any when you give one person overriding power and introduce a human element.
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 04:48 -03
#11

Zefram says


I denied him as a merc for this match for those reasons. I made it VERY CLEAR to you and him that he would not be allowed to play.





Actually no. You signed off after saying no and then 2 other refs told me yes. Consider unique were the ref for our match. I listened to him.

You signed on immediately after that before the start of our game and said if we used tap you'd give us a forfeit.

We found another merc willing which TBH, wasn't easy. But we did it within the time limit for when the ref's told us to join and well before the server timer expired.

Immediately when asking if we could use fiskbit, the other team left in an attempt that they already won.

We waited on the server, with the ref and fiskbit ready. The timer counted down. Aphex wins! yay.

Do you understand how ridiculous this is!?

This is supposed to be a fun league game. This is not what NS2 is about for us. So yes, I also felt it important to post on the UWE forums vaticides writeup in order to expose a huge problem in comp play.

Can we PLEASE stop the bickering and let's play our match.

The other team BM'd and tried to exploit the rules (which we DID NOT BREAK) for an easy win. Period.
bm
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13 April 2014 - 04:59 -03
#12
The only one that is bad mannered is you Tagwolf.
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 05:04 -03
#13

Berend says

The only one that is bad mannered is you Tagwolf.




My feelings..... :(
bm
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13 April 2014 - 05:04 -03
#14
If you are so sensitive towards your own feelings maybe you should work on your behaviour towards others :).
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 05:20 -03
#15

Berend says

If you are so sensitive towards your own feelings maybe you should work on your behaviour towards others :).




By doing things like telling my team to leave before a match starts or the timer even expires.

We waited for you to come back and had Fiskbit. Which btw, makes him the THIRD merc you said no to when you left the game after he was ready to play.

That is THREE mercs we asked for and you said no to all of them. That's why it took so long. It's like tripping someone in a race and then asking, Why are you so slow?

-----
(e) Substitutes can not be denied in an attempt to force a forfeit.
NSL would like to remind teams that it is more fun and challenging to beat a 6-man team than a 5 or a 4-man team, and that you should allow substitutes as long as they seem fair.
-----

If you want an easy win against us I'm sorry, it isn't going to happen.
bm
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13 April 2014 - 05:23 -03
#16
IMO You are a liar and you deserve a ban for your misconduct, period.
Not even going to try to dismantle your fantasy story.
Fact remains that we were ready to play you untill after maximum default time expired.
You failed to field a team with an aprovable merc within time and you even lied to your own team.
go figure.
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 05:29 -03
#17

Berend says

You are a liar and you deserve a ban for your misconduct, period.
Not even going to try to dismantle your fantasy story.





That sounds a lot like a Bill O'Reilly argument.
Pelargir
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13 April 2014 - 05:32 -03
#18
tagwolf says
Actually no. You signed off after saying no and then 2 other refs told me yes. Consider unique were the ref for our match. I listened to him.


Unique was the Referee of this match, as you said, his words have the force of law, except if an Admin gives a different version. Unique said yes, Zefram said no, Zefram is the League Admin so you have to accept his decision as priority. The issue is you talked with Zefram & he said no, if Unique didn't know this discussion, of course that can create a big misunderstanding. When I talked with you during this match, nobody mentioned Steam conversation with Zefram, why?
if the question was already solved, why call me or Unique?



“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
bm
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13 April 2014 - 05:34 -03
#19
please, every post you made about what happened included straight up lies.
you can try to be clever all you want but your manipulative posts are really just exposing you for what you are; a lying asshole :).
have a good day sir, see u ringside hopefully.
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 05:44 -03
#20

Pelargir says


tagwolf says

Actually no. You signed off after saying no and then 2 other refs told me yes. Consider unique were the ref for our match. I listened to him.




Unique was the Referee of this match, as you said, his words have the force of law, except if an Admin gives a different version. Unique said yes, Zefram said no, Zefram is the League Admin so you have to accept his decision as priority. The issue is you talked with Zefram & he said no, if Unique didn't know this dicussion, of course that can create a big misunderstanding. When I talked with you during this match, nobody mentionned Steam conversation with Zefram, why?
if the question was already solved, why call me or Unique?






Simple. We read the rules and saw that a player must be in the same division.

TAP mentioned a personal bias against him and the zef didn't like him. I have no idea if that impacted his decision and it doesn't matter TBH. But at the moment it seemed important that we play so I asked the other ref who as far as I understood was already talking to Zefram and to ABadHabit and had this information.

I was unaware Zefram's word was the end all be all. I know other refs ask him for things. However I thought that was because he had a good knowledge of the ruleset. Not that there was a monarchy in the ref system.

Zefram signed off when I asked him if we could reschedule as I was really worried about time now. I asked you to help us resolve it as I know Ren, the refs, and the other team were waiting. This was right before 1pm. We had already been talking to ABadHabit an hour earlier trying to sort this out and possibly reschedule.

Your decision provided the ability for us to do what we wanted to. Play.

Not many other players were on. Fiskbit was a possibility. When I asked, they all left before the timer expired. So while we were shocked, we waited... With 6 (no TAP).

I don't understand why the other team is making this so difficult.

As I stated, we played GCC last week, they needed 2 mercs. One of them with a Div 1 history just like TAP. We didn't care. We just wanted to play. And we 2-2'd them regardless.

Perhaps we would have 4-0'd them otherwise. But who cares?

Look, we just want to stop the shit slinging, of which I'm guilty of myself and play this match. Settle it on the field, and entertain the community.

Ren's cast said it perfectly. While you can just take the easy win, you have to understand you're not the only people in the world and many viewers and players were disappointed.

This whole situation was avoidable. I have never in my life been down 2 players last minute before a match, with waka or aphex. So perhaps I didn't handle this well either. But I was sorta in panic mode knowing people were waiting and the clock was ticking.
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 05:51 -03
#21
Which to elaborate on the "we were down two players". One of our players showed up exactly at 1pm. I thought I was going to need 2 mercs, not 1. We figured once we had 5 + merc (tap), we were good to go.

Zefram messaged me and said if tap played he'd record a forfeit. From what ABadHabit told be zefram said to him:

ABadHabit: Zefram (twitch.tv/Zefram0911): I'd support you if you say no to them as mercs.
Zefram (twitch.tv/Zefram0911): you can tell that to the ref or whatever
Zefram (twitch.tv/Zefram0911): or get the ref to message me
Zefram (twitch.tv/Zefram0911): I'm in the middle of a scrim.. but just say no to the mercs. I'd support you
bm
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13 April 2014 - 05:52 -03
#22
You are the one slinging shit, not us.
Zefram
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13 April 2014 - 05:54 -03
#23
Let's get some things straight, Tagwolf.

First, I had no idea what the circumstances of this match were until ABadHabit contacted me first (before you even did) about his concerns with Tap possibly mercing. Any hinting that I influenced his team in some way to deny Tap as a merc is preposterous. They brought their concerns to me first. Then you brought your concerns to me about having TWO missing players of your own.

Secondly, I'm learning now that you weren't able to get an appropriate 6 man roster together in a timely manner. When you told me your side of the story, you only mentioned 13 minutes and the other team just decided to take a cheap forfeit. You failed to mention that the other team, the caster, and refs were waiting for at least half an hour on top of that.

I clearly stated that Tap was not allowed to play in your match before I signed off. Why was his name even brought up to one of the refs then? I couldn't have made it more clear to you before I signed off. The delays seems to be one of your team's doing. Failure to have people show for a scheduled match and then scrambling to find a substitute.

You're placing much of the blame on me for this match, but at the end of the day, you scheduled a match without providing enough players. Own up to that. You came to me in the beginning asking for an extension because you weren't sure you'd have enough to be able to play the match. In light of this new information and unless a referee can give us more info, this match is a forfeit in favor of Perfect Peckers.

You know what I find in bad taste? Cherry picking and trying to manipulate the rules to make a case.
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Zefram
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13 April 2014 - 05:55 -03
#24
Also, I can't blame you for taking that snippet of chat with ABadHabit out of context, considering he probably didn't paste you the beginning of that conversation.

Please don't play innocent about the rules either. You know I am the league admin AND I wrote the rules. Don't be naive now.
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nezz
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13 April 2014 - 05:57 -03
#25
Grab the popcorn, we are in for the long haul boys.
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 06:01 -03
#26

Zefram says

Also, I can't blame you for taking that snippet of chat with ABadHabit out of context, considering he probably didn't paste you the beginning of that conversation.




That's the only chat I have from ABadHabit from you. So you're right. I wasn't implying any context to it at all.

In light of what information?

We have logs of refs telling us to wait while they sort out the merc situation.

I can't believe this league is going so down hill that you are roadblocking us at every place to just play.

You already told me exactly:

Zefram (twitch.tv/Zefram0911): that match is getting played.
Zefram (twitch.tv/Zefram0911): you guys reschedule with them.


If you are taking that back. I think my team would support me and I know you don't care. Vat already mentioned us leaving NSL.

For the last time, all we want to do is play and we were in a hurry to not have the clock run out.

Our ref told us to wait multiple times when I asked him which server. As shown below:

Uniquê: I guess we could chatroom
Tag Wolf: ok. you wanna invite us?
Tag Wolf: or join mine. which ever
Tag Wolf: ABadHabit: and i got adviced to decline those players
Tag Wolf: tap is div 2
Tag Wolf: e.g. our div
Tag Wolf: I'm happy to find a replacement for pennil
Tag Wolf: is it possible to get an extension to saturday. as we've never had 2 players not show before. so this is uncharted territory for us as well.
Tag Wolf: which server?
Uniquê: It is possiable to extend to the saturday
Uniquê: April 22 is the deadline
Tag Wolf: are you 100% sure on that?
Uniquê: Pelagir confirmed it
Uniquê: when is the deadline for them?
23:01 - Uniquê: April 22
23:01 - Jean-Charles: so, they have time to reschedule if Perfect accept
Tag Wolf: what server?
Uniquê: Well ABad is still guestining the mercs
Uniquê: Pelagir sended an invite to a chatroom
Uniquê: To clear this problem out
SUPER_SARS
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13 April 2014 - 06:12 -03
#27
I'm guessing people are having problems with the rules, so here let me lay some out plainly so everyone can read them without going to the rules document.

In terms of mercs:

(c) The player must be of equivalent or lower skill than the rest of the members of your team. A quick parameter to determine a substitute’s eligibility may be the division of the team that player belongs, but may not be sufficient. A referee or admin can determine a player’s suitability.

and

(f) Substitutes may only be denied on the basis of perceived higher skill.


PP voiced their concerns about the skill level of the player and that player was denied. You should of moved on right then and there.

In terms of rescheduling:

(i) If a team is unable to field players for a confirmed match time, they must notify their opponent with at least twenty four (24) hours notice. Less than twenty four (24) hours notice may receive a forfeit loss if a reschedule cannot be agreed upon.


You can't just ask for a reschedule at the last second and expect your wish to be granted.

If you wonder what other rules are in the league, feel free to read them. I'm sure most players havn't.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PBi61Dw7Cym_IM0YufUwxODVMZJ-QHRYgMBbosJD5l4/
Malware
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13 April 2014 - 06:17 -03
#28
Yes Tagwolf i said wait a few times to you when you were asking what server, but i was busy solving the mercs with pelagir and informing Ren if the match is being played or not, (because he was the caster at the time and wished to be informed of it) and those made me delay to say what server to get it cleared up so that we could move on with it.
bm
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13 April 2014 - 06:19 -03
#29
I like how we waited untill AFTER the time expired giving you a chance to field an aprovable merc, yet you're acusing us of unsportsmanship and being unprofessional.
Not to mention your bad manners during the whole situation, it's just laughable, really.
tagwolf
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13 April 2014 - 06:29 -03
#30

Berend says

I like how we waited untill AFTER the time expired giving you a chance to field an aprovable merc, yet you're acusing us of unsportsmanship and being unprofessional.
Not to mention your bad manners during the whole situation, it's just laughable, really.




Then be a man and play us.

If you want an easy win take it and I hope you guys feel awesome and so accomplished over it.

Put your money where your mouth is and play us.

I'm being told you don't want to. I can only imagine it's because you know we'd win.
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