Ladder System for NSL. Need Your Opinion!

Vindaloo
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9 December 2014 - 15:07 EST
#1
Hi everyone, this thread is here to see if there would be support from the community for ladder system after S5 and particularly our implementation of it. It's called Simple Ladder System. Most of it is explained in the doc that will be linked a bit lower. First I wanna talk about why and what's good or bad about it. Over the past few weeks we showed some people and got a bit of feedback. So let's start.
The classic season is not very dynamic, sometimes it can be weeks between your matches. It could be said that divisions promote big gaps in the skill. It can take half a year before new team can join in on the fun. Teams change a lot during season, be it practice or new members or old ones leaving, and they might find that the division is no longer proper for them. Some teams would like to take breaks at different times than others. Sometimes you need the break to restock the roster. Maybe you can come up with more of these issues.
I think that we need a new system for the competition, dynamic system to meet our needs. Ladder could allow us to have this flexible system to allow for sustainable and perpetual competition. Problem with ladder, as most known, is that they are fairly complicated to implement as they are mostly made for tens of thousands of players and are based on some points system, be it Elo, MMR, what have you. NSL would need something tailored to fit 5 or 50 or 100 teams, that would be easy to understand and implement. That's where our system comes in. It's time for the link, but keep in mind this is a proposal, and if we were to get the support from you and go ahead from zefram, there is also code to be implemented and tested, UI to be designed. Simple is already coding bits here and there, we have some ideas how UI should look like, but we would like greenlight first before we put more work into this. After you read the doc, I still have few lines for you to read:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q20xvTm3Xo4UxTwB95J7XjhQ7zFtKSiuwKj3-ym7w_8/edit?usp=sharing

To address some of the issues we already heard:
We don't have official support from Zefram unless there is interest in the community first. Zefram thinks the classic season is sustainable format, for at least another season, with the activity that's going on in div 2-4 and that it would be only for prem div and div 1 which might not even play afer S5.
That's why this thread is here, to see if there is support and if you got any ideas about this. Basically we need to discuss 2 things, is (1) ladder style better and (2) is our implementation good enough for it.
For me I don't think that to choose a ladder or not is based on the amount of active teams, the system works for few or dozens up to hundreds. And it will be easier for teams to pick the competition up or take a short break on their own, no need to disband or wait few months to get into it.

There were concerns that teams could only play 1 day a week, be it pcw or match, and that this would not allow for time to organize the schedule (both in the team and with the opponent).
To that I say that this means the team wont be very active, the outlier section talks about this. Maybe some kind of team calendar or chat room or something available on the smartphones would help the team to organize itself. But this is out of the SLS scope and this kind of team would be in disadvantage with low amount of matches played, but then again in classic season, if you don't get practice, it's almost the same.

Another issue was that teams are lazy and would be hard pressed to challenge or organize stuff. Well, the ladder itself promotes active behavior, by playing more matches you get more chances to jump ahead and with inactivity you drop down without even loosing a match by people jumping over teams above you. I believe there would be some "tryhards" and active teams to show the others that being active is a good thing. The UI should also help making it easy. We could implement email reminders to team leaders, etc.

There was also concern that individual matches are not that important anymore and that there is no final goal in the ladder.
That's a valid concern, be it for casters, the viewers or teams themselves. I see the ladder as sustainable perpetual system and we could build on top of that. For example quarterly tournament with different levels and seeded based on the ladder. Ladder would pause in the time of the tourney and then continue right after it. Something like EU Open was.

Another concern was what kind of situation this brings to the casters/refs/admins.
If the system is properly implemented, there would be no need for google spreadsheet, all could be done with proper UI changes. For example main ladder page would be ranked list from which you could issue challenges, there would be side by side with list of upcoming challenges/matches, both refs and casters could signup in there and link to stream could show in the list. Refs would be updating match pages directly and the info would be immediately available to the whole community. Ofc some coding would have to be done, so we cannot have this version out tomorrow. But Simple is looking trough the code and tinkering a bit and thinks it's not that hard and challenges system was already partially implemented on ENSL.

Alright I think we covered all the concerns we know about, now let us know what you think. Have at it. Please try to keep format of 2 parts, first if you are pro or against, why and when you would change your mind; second, what is wrong with or how in love you are with our system. :)

Simple (HBZ) & Vindaloo (onFire)

EDIT: forgot the link silly me :)
Wob
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9 December 2014 - 17:03 EST
#2
Vindaloo says

There was also concern that individual matches are not that important anymore and that there is no final goal in the ladder.
That's a valid concern, be it for casters, the viewers or teams themselves. I see the ladder as sustainable perpetual system and we could build on top of that. For example quarterly tournament with different levels and seeded based on the ladder. Ladder would pause in the time of the tourney and then continue right after it. Something like EU Open was.


Just want to highlight this before I say I think this is a good idea. Because this is a reaaaaaaly good idea.
Nexen
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9 December 2014 - 17:51 EST
#3
+1
Mephilles
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9 December 2014 - 18:14 EST
#4
I generally like the idea and would support it. But it could create some kind of boredom in the maps that are going to be played. Most teams like tram for example so I guess we would mostly see tram.

On the other hand it would give possibilities to train unpopular maps like descent pretty hard and make it something like a home map...

I have no idea if that's positive or negative but I just wanted to point that out
Mega
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9 December 2014 - 19:12 EST
#5
Mephilles says
I generally like the idea and would support it. But it could create some kind of boredom in the maps that are going to be played. Most teams like tram for example so I guess we would mostly see tram.

On the other hand it would give possibilities to train unpopular maps like descent pretty hard and make it something like a home map...

I have no idea if that's positive or negative but I just wanted to point that out


there are probly serval ways in archiving teams playing new maps might as well even be force 1 week with custom maps/not much played maps.

or have 1 addional custom maps/not much played maps.
or say in which week what maps get played.


Edit 11.2.15: Im not sure if i stated it back in the days but i would defintly like to have a ladder system instead of a season.
schu
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9 December 2014 - 19:15 EST
#6
How will the div 2-4 teams be affected by this ladder change if they are going against a premiere or div 1 team? Would this cause lower level teams to rage quit out of the tournament?

I'm all for keeping the comp scene alive. But I also don't want to see teams leave because of it either. We all understand something must be changed to fit the needs of our current competitive scene. I'm just not entirely convinced on this ladder system just yet. I'd have to see it with my own eyes and how it plays out.

But in all honesty, the question isn't how to keep the competitive scene alive, it's how do we get more teams to become involved in the competitive scene. How do we get more players into teams and help them grow.

I've been helping a div 4 team for about 2 weeks now. They've improved dramatically and are starting to understand the dynamics of the game and how team work oriented it is.

Now I'm not asking for the top players to baby sit a lower div team. All i'm asking is how do we make the competitive scene grow so we won't have to resort to drastic NSL changes to keep the teams we already have from quitting.
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9 December 2014 - 19:20 EST
#7
schu says
How will the div 2-4 teams be affected by this ladder change if they are going against a premiere or div 1 team? Would this cause lower level teams to rage quit out of the tournament?


Do what's been done before and have mini tournaments by breaking down the seedings. 6-8 seedings per group and each group runs it's own little tournament much like a season.


schu says

But in all honesty, the question isn't how to keep the competitive scene alive, it's how do we get more teams to become involved in the competitive scene. How do we get more players into teams and help them grow.


No entry/exit barriers to a ladder system makes it easier for teams to join / leave / go inactive without a drastic effect on the community. Players can also change teams as they wish and dont have to wait 1/2 a year to try and make/join a new team and hope it works.

schu says

I've been helping a div 4 team for about 2 weeks now. They've improved dramatically and are starting to understand the dynamics of the game and how team work oriented it is.

Now I'm not asking for the top players to baby sit a lower div team. All i'm asking is how do we make the competitive scene grow so we won't have to resort to drastic NSL changes to keep the teams we already have from quitting.

This is a solution. It is a good solution.
Sardine
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9 December 2014 - 19:35 EST
#8
I like the idea of a dynamic ladder.

Q. How about a veto process to pick/deny maps from the map pool à la CS:GO?

Q. what are the teams at the top of the ladder going to do with all their spare time? The skill gap between premier and everyone else is still too large to see non-premier teams mounting a successful challenge on the top, so why would they bother challenging at all.
Jason_
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9 December 2014 - 20:47 EST
#9
+1 Make it so.
Seb
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9 December 2014 - 22:49 EST
#10
Pretty sure Zefram has already said that a ladder system is in the works right now...
Loulebe
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10 December 2014 - 01:10 EST
#11
Iam a few scared by this...
I like the classic format.
I prefer to play like a "season" (just 1-3 month not all time)

I don't know if i understand all the ladder system (correct me if iam wrong)
Ladder system will reward people who play all time. But do we have break ?
If the ladder never stop, they will have no winners,or the winners will be the team who are playing all time...

For example, if a team stop to play. a other team will ask "challenge" just to up on the ladder..

we do not have enough team to make this system viable.... Actually the life of a team is like 2-3 month... after they change the name,fusion with other team.


That will be not representif... It's very boring to organize a match. I think that will be more hard...
And we will see less team in competion....

The real problem is not ur "classic season"

[[[[
But in all honesty, the question isn't how to keep the competitive scene alive, it's how do we get more teams to become involved in the competitive scene. How do we get more players into teams and help them grow.

Totally agree with that !

we need more player, we need to attract them !
I see so many server rookie...

It's very difficult to make a team. You need to ask on forum but nobody want to post... If you are new that will be harder !!
For example...
Make pub on the game have a button directly to go on ensl?
Create a automatic system who send message to member of ensl (every 2-3 month). Just to ask if they search a team and what level they are or if they have played on team and what the level of team..)
And create a list of player who seek a team with the level (div1-4)
]]]]

SOZ FOR MY ENGLISH :D
that was just my opinion.
skyice
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10 December 2014 - 03:35 EST
#12
Amazing work, this season has been so boring,
I wanna play officials against top div 4 and the whole of div 2 and im sure div 4 teams would like a shot at us. Under the current format this can never happen.

For concerns with arranging matches, it cant be worse than having 50% usa teams in your division. We have waited 2 - 3 weeks a time for a official game, this isnt good enough and makes ns2 competitive drawn-out and lackluster-ed

We often pcw div 2 teams, itll be nice to have the feel of the game being recorded officially. New teams can join the league when ever insted of waiting 6 months for the next season to start.

This can only be positive for the community.
Pelargir
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10 December 2014 - 04:29 EST
#13
The whole NSL staff: admins first and Referees/Casters thereafter have been aware of this "new option". Vindaloo is just waiting for public feedbacks, what you think guys about it and so forth.

While our main webmasters cannot spend more time at making improvements and changes into the website, Simple nicely approached us and started to deeply analyze our code and all this stuff to make sure a such system can be added onto the current website.

There are advantages and downsides about this ladder system as much as the regular and classic season format has. Hence your opinion is crucial and important. Even the staff is split with people in favor of the ladder system in a side and people against it in the other side. The global purpose is to figure out whether this system is well received by the community or it doesn't worth a try. Straight after Season 5 or even later?

In my opinion, reading these comments made me think about the other events that the NSL might or might not offer such as shorter tournaments (Custom maps cups, draft tournaments). A ladder format is endless (apart a few breaks) so does it maintain the possibility to organize other events and not during the breaks that may be unfair to gather as many teams as possible and get a larger scope. Beside this, I think I already know everything I could have been wondering anyway.
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10 December 2014 - 04:53 EST
#14
I like the idea of the ladder. I was thinking about the problems a ladder system might spawn and Vindaloo did a great job to represent those honeslty in the original post. We have a couple of tools at our hand, which can dampen the new problems of a ladder.

On the same time I see some important issues solved. So for me the advantages outweight the disadvantages. If there are people willing to execute it - and it seems there are - I say we should give it a try.

schu says

But in all honesty, the question isn't how to keep the competitive scene alive, it's how do we get more teams to become involved in the competitive scene. How do we get more players into teams and help them grow.


I think that is another -admittedly connected - topic. Since this thread is about changing ensl's tourney-system or not, I hope we don't drift too much into it.

But it is justified to check and compare the ladder-system against the current system, when it comes to New-Team-Friendliness.

What happens to a really new team in each system?

In divisional play you as a rookie team, play 1 match per season against an opponent of euqal class. All the rest of the games you will have a very hard time.

In ladder you can play against 1 team with perspective of improving from the lowest rank to the second-to-lowest rank. If you feel like it, you can challenge another team and are beaten.

Here I must say, I don't see much of a difference. Playing in div4 or at the bottom of the ladder is just hard for a new team. Why? Because there is only at most 2 really new teams around at the same time. All the other "new" teams, are either rusty ex-better players or are reformed from previous div4 teams, with experience in their lines already. The team dynamics change drastically, if you have only just one player in your rooster, who knows what he is doing and able to teach the others.

Neither the divisions nor the ladder can change anything about that.

So, yeah, entry-friendliness, is an issue which lies outside the scope of the tourney system.

Spoiler

Excursion to "Keeping ENSL alive" (nothing to do with ladder)
Personally I think it's awesome that there are actually people in higher divisions, who care and help about the lower teams or even spin up one of their own.

I don't give a damn about any prem-div team splitting and forfeiting (don't get me wrong, it's nice you are here). But, what really hurt in this season was seeing "Shards of Chaos" and "Egg" being gone. What made me really happy at the same time was seeing AFB and ADM being formed. Kudos to crowbar for (very!) spontaneously forming that Austrian team and to AFB sticking to it.

Players, who had been around for a long time will drop out eventually. It is natural and bound to happen all the time - in each community. This is why THE most concern in TAW is to find new people, who fit in, and make them as welcome as possible.
And I might say, that TAW had a fair share in bringing players into the ENSL as well - not the best players, maybe :D

Pumping in fesh blood is the only solution to keep a community alive.

I and others in TAW actually have plans on how to bring even more players into the ENSL. But that ideas are in a very early stadium still.

This closes my opinions on this topic, which very well deserves its own thread (and I think there had been some before).
End of excursion


Let's come back to the ladder-discussion, shall we?
Vindaloo
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10 December 2014 - 06:28 EST
#15
Seb says
Pretty sure Zefram has already said that a ladder system is in the works right now...

This is it afaik.

Mephilles says
On the other hand it would give possibilities to train unpopular maps like descent pretty hard and make it something like a home map...

Exactly. We could also have map pool changes every few months or so. There was also mention of vetoing the maps like in csgo or so, that is a possibility, not sure which is better. But that is something that we can try for few months each and decide what's best. or even alternate if both are nice.

Breaks are to be had, as mentioned in the doc, we could have all league breaks on holidays (tho i don't support break over summer, it could just be smaller ladder for people who wants to keep playing). There is also individual break weeks for teams which allows them immunity from the challenges. I think that's plenty enough. We have to keep in mind that the ladder is dynamic and for active teams, if you are inactive, take a break week or drop out, when you get back, you can play couple matches and be where you left. No reason to play all year around if you don't want to, but good to be able to play and jump in at any time if you do want to.

Most of your posts guys are pretty well covered by Wob's responses, so I won't answer to each one of you. Last one to mention and like I said at the OP, we could do quarterly tourneys, like UE Open, it was lower and upper bracket format. You could have brackets grouped and seeded by ladder ranking. We could give out "Medals" like the hall of fame is now, showing on the team page probably. It's possible to make stats for the ladder "seasons" and use those for "medal" purposes too. to give some meaning to the ladder itself and it all climaxes in the tourney as mentioned earlier.

So far the people posting in this thread are (if I understood the posts correctly): 7 pro, 4 undecided, 0 against
Ben
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10 December 2014 - 06:37 EST
#16
imo problem is not how to play competitive, but how to bring new players (in comp and in ns2 too). And then new teams.
"The classic season is not very dynamic", because we get 25 teams.
I'm not sure we just have 25 (30 ?) teams alive because the competitive system sucks.
Cool to try to find a solution. Find players first
Neoken
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10 December 2014 - 07:41 EST
#17
I'm all for it. Especially the quarterly tournaments based on ladder seeding sound like a great way to keep teams motivated.

The ladder is also a nice way to deal with lineup changes. If a team drastically improves because some high level players join, it won't create bad blood within the division like it would now, as they'll just move up the ladder ranking quickly, no drama.

Also better for new teams who want to tryout the competitive scene, etc... Should definitely give it a try next season imo.
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10 December 2014 - 08:55 EST
#18
I think a ladder-system is the only way to keep the NS2-Competitive-Cumminity alive, but you need to implement qualifiers for some kind of cups. For example playoffs for the top-10/top-20 teams of the ladder.

There need to be events with one winner in the end.

Ladder-systen as soon as possible please!
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10 December 2014 - 10:34 EST
#19
+1

As a pretty new comp player, I felt that the standard format felt slow, and it caused a few issues with teams accusing teams of picking lower divs on purpose etc.
I think a ladder format would not only help keep comp NS2 alive, it would stimulate it and bring more players out of the woodwork.
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swalk
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10 December 2014 - 12:12 EST
#20
Good work guys, looking forward to seeing how this will play out. I would also like to see more cups though. It would be amazing for the off-season time, for example like right now where only a few teams are playing playoffs while the rest are pretty much inactive due to no official games.
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10 December 2014 - 12:36 EST
#21
This Ladder system is a good idea :D

+1
bonage
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10 December 2014 - 13:55 EST
#22
To be honest, you guys should do a combination of both ladder and divisions.

There are many other leagues for different comp games like cs:go that will often run 2 divisions for the players that want to play/can play at a higher skill level, whilst at the same time having a ladder system for those wanting more casual play and linear progression.

I would say in the case of nsl, given the current size/ projected size of the community for next season, you could get away with having 1 division of 6-8 teams for those wanting to duke it out at the top, and the ladder system for everyone else.

As the skill level gap between the current top teams and the middle/bottom teams is quite high, it wouldn't really make a difference if they were separated and put in a division as no-one would really be able to effectively challenge them anyway if they were at the top of a single ladder system.

At the end of a season, you could have the top teams from the ladder challenge for a position in the top division to ensure that there is adequate entry points for up and coming teams to enter the higher level of play if they wish to do so.

I would use caution for a single ladder approach, as there is a very real danger of stagnating your competitive scene even further. It also shouldn't be considered a complete solution for rejuvenating the competitive scene.

To do that, you will need to actively campaign to both new players, pub players and those who have left the game. This means having more off season tournaments, draft tournaments for getting pub players into the comp scene (requires active work by comp players as well to get them interested), as well as better communicating the upcoming changes from the CDT that will hopefully bring performance improvements.
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10 December 2014 - 14:48 EST
#23
bonage says
To be honest, you guys should do a combination of both ladder and divisions.

There are many other leagues for different comp games like cs:go that will often run 2 divisions for the players that want to play/can play at a higher skill level, whilst at the same time having a ladder system for those wanting more casual play and linear progression.

I would say in the case of nsl, given the current size/ projected size of the community for next season, you could get away with having 1 division of 6-8 teams for those wanting to duke it out at the top, and the ladder system for everyone else.

As the skill level gap between the current top teams and the middle/bottom teams is quite high, it wouldn't really make a difference if they were separated and put in a division as no-one would really be able to effectively challenge them anyway if they were at the top of a single ladder system.

At the end of a season, you could have the top teams from the ladder challenge for a position in the top division to ensure that there is adequate entry points for up and coming teams to enter the higher level of play if they wish to do so.

I would use caution for a single ladder approach, as there is a very real danger of stagnating your competitive scene even further. It also shouldn't be considered a complete solution for rejuvenating the competitive scene.

To do that, you will need to actively campaign to both new players, pub players and those who have left the game. This means having more off season tournaments, draft tournaments for getting pub players into the comp scene (requires active work by comp players as well to get them interested), as well as better communicating the upcoming changes from the CDT that will hopefully bring performance improvements.


+1 to bonage. This would be the best way to do a ladder system IMO. this lets ppl still keep their casual mentality to playing comp or play in a high skill division :D
ryssk
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11 December 2014 - 02:35 EST
#24
+1 for ladder

Makes it easier to arrange matches, and you could actually have more games that are like "official". + you can arrange the games with whoever you want to without being downsized for 3-4 teams to play and arrange against in the last of weeks.

What i'm saying it's just more flexibel?

And also new teams can come along and doesnt have to wait for a full season to end

dePARA
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11 December 2014 - 05:57 EST
#25
The two division ladder is a good idea but it would only work if someone have an eye on the team roosters.
Im sure some div1 players are ready to form a "Div2" team to stomp the low skill ladder.
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11 December 2014 - 06:13 EST
#26
EDIT cause forgot the main point.
So far pro 13, undecided 2, against 0. Then there is what bonage said. Let me start by refocusing on what this thread is about and then reacting to him and my opinion.

In some of the post we are going of topic a bit even if related. SLS is suppose to be long-term solution for sustainable, easily approachable and on-your-own terms competition. It's not as much about what we will do at times to make some spectacular competition like those quaterly tourneys or how we are gonna keep the community alive or how to bring new people, however important and a bit related to SLS, they should spawn own thread. SLS is here to offer a a base you can build those things on. I wanted people to let me know if ladder is a go and opinion about this specific system. sometimes we are focusing on details beyond the scope of this thread that could be solved along the way. But I guess good for making notes. :)
Anyway, back to bonage, it's interesting idea, but for example, if SLS was a go, I would try to resurrect onFire with some new additions, but I wouldn't want to compete in the ladder for the chance or be placed in such pro-division to play the same old stale league style again. I don't want to keep that kind of competition around at all. But that's my opinion. You got Tico supporting you there, but I don't count your votes to either category just yet, which one is it anyway, 4th? And let's see if there is more support for this. I should also probably talk to individual captains and hear their opinion if they didn't post it here yet. But if people are not posting here, are they indifferent to it, don't care, don't check ensl few times a week, well, I guess private contact is necessary, even the thread is out for few days only.
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11 December 2014 - 06:34 EST
#27
+1
*goes back to his grave*
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11 December 2014 - 11:14 EST
#28
I'm against as well as some of other Referees.

- One match per 14days this will lead to nil for teams which are not overactive .

- We will lose the difference between PCW and official match, the first one is for training, second one is for try hard in game and evaluate the work which has been done by teams.

- IMO, This system leads to less match between USA & European. And we need to play those matchs as soon as we can play.

- Ladders system are powerful when you have lots of teams. This is not the case here. A match can be scheduled in 5min and then start in 10min, no referee, no caster. I like caster and referees. First promotes our games by streaming them. Second are here to limit the "complaints" case, No referees means complaints and means more work for admins.

- the actual system with deadlines/milestones is better for recruiting because all teams/players are free at the same time. In a ladder system this is random because there is no big milestones like "season's start, season's end".

- The ladder system only favors the teams who plays often, I think it will divide the community into active and less active teams. This leads to a decreasing phenomenom. If some teams want to play more, they can pcw as often as they want. The ENSL should organise more small CUP every time. Also if we want to be appealing for new players and new teams, we must ensure that div4 teams are real div4's team and not div3's teams, moreover we should promote more our tournaments in the pubs.

- One last point to the fact that there is less and less players. The decreasing phenomenon is occuring by stage via our current system. By using a ladder, I think it will become linear and faster.

Conclusion, the idea might be good at the beginning of the game, I think this isn't the right solution at the moment to revamp our Community.


I don't want to be rude to Vindaloo or Simple, I know it's a lot of work to setup this but this is my opinion.
Ben
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11 December 2014 - 11:21 EST
#29
Sephy +1
Vindaloo
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11 December 2014 - 12:02 EST
#30
Sephy says
- One match per 14days this will lead to nil for teams which are not overactive ..

How overactive are you talking about, get challenged once 10 days, challenge one once 10 days. And only if you use all teh deadlines to the fullest. If you don't challenge and no one challenges you then yes, it could be a lot less. We could force teams to challenge at least once every 2 weeks. But you are asuming teams will do nothing and be totaly lazy. I don't want those teams in the compettive NS2, if they don't want to play, I don't want to play with them. Why we need to hold their hands like they are babies?

Sephy says
- We will lose the difference between PCW and official match, the first one is for training, second one is for try hard in game and evaluate the work which has been done by teams.

No, you got it wrong. You still play PCWs, this just ALLOWS you, if you WANT, to make some PCWs official ladder matches. No one is forcing you to use your regular PCWs for the ladder, it's just an option.

Sephy says
- IMO, This system leads to less match between USA & European. And we need to play those matches as soon as we can play.

Possibly, there is still quite a few NA teams so you would have to play them eventually. This is a valid point to consider. My opinion: in S5 d2 was mainly EU and d1 was a lot of NA, so if you mix and match ladder could actually promote some cross play, you need to get ahead of these NA teams, well, you have to challenge them. I don't actually see this as a problem. I see it as opportunity to schedule NA matches when time is right for your team. (talking form the EU perspective).

Sephy says
- Ladders system are powerful when you have lots of teams. This is not the case here. A match can be scheduled in 5min and then start in 10min, no referee, no caster. I like caster and referees. First promotes our games by streaming them. Second are here to limit the "complaints" case, No referees means complaints and means more work for admins.

Most of the Matches will take days to play out, I already talked about the UI changes that could make it easier for both refs and casters. If teams schedule and play a match in 5m then they are probably friendly to each other and there is good chance there will be no complains at all. Also this is more about the teams, not really the viewers. I am caster too and I am not scared this would put me out of my job. Plus those quarterly tourneys we talk about everywhere?

Sephy says
- the actual system with deadlines/milestones is better for recruiting because all teams/players are free at the same time. In a ladder system this is random because there is no big milestones like "season's start, season's end".

I see this as positive, not negative. Easier for new teams to start, easier to grab players you need if they are not tied for a season. We could implement some team jumping rule, but this goes along the dynamic nature of the ladder, if player is not happy on the team, it's easier for him to leave. For eg. we had to fold mid season, which fucks with whole season, cause of the lack of players and their commitment. be it in ladder, I would take some break weeks/take hit to rankings and sort this shit out. And again what about those quarterly tourneys/making seasons last 3 months, again talking about it all over the thread.

Sephy says
- The ladder system only favors the teams who plays often, I think it will divide the community into active and less active teams.

Yes, maybe, but it's also a motivation to be more active. However it's designed that if you are just less active your matches are more important to win. If you are more active, you get more chances. That's the difference.

Sephy says
The ENSL should organise more small CUP every time. Also if we want to be appealing for new players and new teams, we must ensure that div4 teams are real div4's team and not div3's teams, moreover we should promote more our tournaments in the pubs.

It's been said around, this is a base, we can build on it. How to keep NSL alive and bring more players in isn't the goal of ladder o SLS or this thread (however related). This is to create continuous base competition and give reason to teams to play and not sit on their asses for 3 months between each season and loose interest.

Sephy says
- One last point to the fact that there is less and less players. The decreasing phenomenon is occurring by stage via our current system. By using a ladder, I think it will become linear and faster.

Possibly, except all the folded teams and disbands mid season. But again, not about the ladder, you are saying the loss of players is constant in time and you are probably right, but if it's linear or every 6 moths, doesn't make, imho, any difference.

Sephy says
Conclusion, the idea might be good at the beginning of the game, I think this isn't the right solution at the moment to revamp our Community.

Again, isn't trying to be. Just to make the revamp easier. Others have come up with ideas how to revamp and bring new blood, there is also the farm teams thread. This really needs the thread of it's own.

Sephy says
I don't want to be rude to Vindaloo or Simple, I know it's a lot of work to setup this but this is my opinion.

No, you are not, that's why this thread is here, so we don't put more work into it for nothing. Thanks for your opinion, but I think you misunderstood some of the stuff you are talking about. I hope I cleared some of it up and you change your opinion. For now I am putting you to "against" and probably Ben too, since he +1 you, gonna recount tomorrow.
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