Shotguns

Kash
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24 March 2016 - 08:34 EDT
#1
Okay, I see a lot of people saying that X suffers when shotguns come up, or that Y needs to be too careful around shotguns.

I think everyone can agree that shotguns are one of (if not THE) biggest upgrades and game changers for marines.

People are suggesting lifeform changes to balance around how strong shotguns are, which would create knockon effects to the rest of the round and without incredibly careful planning could easily result in snowballing etc.

The reason for this I believe is because people LOVE USING shotguns... because who doesn't love knowing they have the upper hand in an engagement... but HATE playing AGAINST shotguns because the opponent clearly has the upper hand.

My suggestion is to alter how OP shotguns are by doing the following.

- reduce amount of pellets per shot to 13 (down from 17)
- increase the amount of shots per clip to 8 (up from 6)
- reduce the delay between shots to 0.6 seconds (down from 0.72) (this would need testing and potentially altering)

This would result in the same Damage Per Second, but a reduction in the burst damage that makes SGs so strong... you would still be able to 1 shot a skulk, if you are a good shot you will still do the same amount of damage as you normally would, it would just be spread out a little more giving the alien lifeforms a little bit more time to react and respond accordingly.

"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
Frozen
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24 March 2016 - 08:57 EDT
#2
You're mistaken in your DPS calculation. It's only equivalent after a whole clip is expelled. 2 shots with the modified shotgun does more damage in that time period than the existing shotgun can.

Increase rate of fire on shotgun also rapes skulks in groups really hard (and lerks even more than already). This was definitely tried in Sewleks Balance Mod.

I'm all for making the change and increasing lifeform hp though. I think going buff for buff is healthier than nerfs in ns.
Kash
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24 March 2016 - 10:17 EDT
#3
Due to the lower pellet count and the fact that it would be a human using the shotgun, not a bot set to 100% accuracy, the dps would remain around the same... also, the 1 shot on a skulk doesn't account for biomass or carapace... technically speaking, with this alteration a weapons 3 shotgun would do less damage on a meatshot than a W0 SG does now. (W0 SG now does 170 on meatshot, W3 SG with my alterations would do 169)

Theory crafting only goes so far, testing the change in a competitive environment would be the only real way to see the effects (good and bad).

As for buffing HP, yeah, the lifeform now can take on shotguns more equally... but that means against LMGs the are too strong... and the changes now have to snowball to fix that HP change... or you lessen the HP changes making the whole "increase hp" a band aid instead of a fix for the real problem... shotguns are currently too strong.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
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24 March 2016 - 13:18 EDT
#4
Shotguns ain't a problem for a aggressive opportunist kamikaze lerk like myself, ppl tend to miss me by a mile for a unknown reason. Even when i just yolo it towards 1 to 3 shotguns sometimes for absolute zero thought.
Honorobruh
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Railo
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24 March 2016 - 14:53 EDT
#5
How about instead of nerfing the shotgun itself you would decrease the groundtime the shotgun stays on the field, or remove the option to toggle the shotgun across the map. At the moment when shotguns are up you don't get any penalty for losing them unless there is a bilegorge around, your teammates just brings them back to closest pg and you are ready to go again. Nerfing or changing the shotgun itself is just stupid at this point, that boat sailed 3 years ago.
bonage
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24 March 2016 - 19:36 EDT
#6
Railo says
How about instead of nerfing the shotgun itself you would decrease the groundtime the shotgun stays on the field, or remove the option to toggle the shotgun across the map. At the moment when shotguns are up you don't get any penalty for losing them unless there is a bilegorge around, your teammates just brings them back to closest pg and you are ready to go again. Nerfing or changing the shotgun itself is just stupid at this point, that boat sailed 3 years ago.


Railo is correct, the problem with shotguns has nothing to do with the values of the sg itself. Rather, it has to do with other mechanics like medspam, marine pres, and the relative ease at which you can keep a sg.

Again, I would wait to see what effect 2 tres meds has on SG marine survival rate first. If there are still issues after that, then reducing the time they remain on the ground after death or making it so you cant pick them up ferry them back to a phase gate are better options.
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Kash
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24 March 2016 - 19:50 EDT
#7
I'm sorry but I don't buy those reasons at all... the idea that "medspam is too common" or "they get recycled too easy" are the cause of fades only surviving 2 meatshots from a SG is not something I can understand... sure medspam is too common, I agree, I also agree that recycling the Pres of marines is too easy... but neither of those things contribute to the outright burst damage of a shotgun... which is what people are complaining about when they ask for fade buffs etc.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
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25 March 2016 - 06:30 EDT
#8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v47drb789Sk Some might want to take a look at this.
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25 March 2016 - 09:14 EDT
#9
Making the sg have a faster fire rate than the fades swipe rate sounds like a really bad idea without changing other things..

These threads lately just make me want to say.. go play Ns2c :D
Frozen
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25 March 2016 - 09:30 EDT
#10
I got $100 if we crowdfund the sponsorship of ensl ns2c s1
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25 March 2016 - 12:35 EDT
#11
Just let me ask a couple of questions here:

1. Are marines winning in high divisions more than aliens? (If yes, do they win only in high divisions more?)
2. Is a change even needed or are those just l2p issues
3. Is the shotgun the biggest power burst for marines in the game? (Especially the first shotgun on the field has huge potential to surprise kill a lerk)
4. Does it make more sense to buff everything to decrease a shotguns impact or to nerf shotguns?
5. Are medpacks the cause of power for shotgunners? (Tbh I think a good shotgunner can kill 3 skulks alone with just 1 medpack)

Tbh I kinda lost track about everything so could someone pls summarise the general problem and the core problem that leads to the general problem?
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25 March 2016 - 14:57 EDT
#12
I dont see the problem with SGs being powerful. But as Railo pointed out, the reward of killing a powerful SG marine is often just neglected by a marine saving the sg. Tons of risk - little reward.
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
Simba
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25 March 2016 - 15:21 EDT
#13
Locklear says
Making the sg have a faster fire rate than the fades swipe rate sounds like a really bad idea without changing other things..


Great, substantive post! :p

Shotguns are powerful. They are also expensive. This implies high risk, high reward. That sounds good to me. Early game, marines without shotguns are viable. Late game, they are not. pRes income dictates the number of shotguns the marines will get in a game, and if they have poor res management, and poor plays with the shotguns, they will lose them, and thus the game. This sounds fine to me. But I don't like that shotguns are SO necessary to the strategy of marine play, that marines can never afford to invest in anything OTHER than shotguns, because in comparison, everything else can't accomplish the wide variety of things, and efficiency the shotgun can.

I disagree with Railo, I think gun decay times are fine. If a gorge is around, marines have to be careful with when and how they lose guns. If a gorge is not around, marines can worry a little less. If they have an engagement with aliens where they "almost win" (life forms must go heal), then they have an opportunity for their guns to be recovered. Fine by me. If the marine loses badly (life form not even hurt) he can guard the shotgun for a short period of time until it decays, opening up lots of potential plays.

Locklear
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25 March 2016 - 15:31 EDT
#14
Simba says
Locklear says
Making the sg have a faster fire rate than the fades swipe rate sounds like a really bad idea without changing other things..


Great, substantive post! :p

Shotguns are powerful. They are also expensive. This implies high risk, high reward. That sounds good to me. Early game, marines without shotguns are viable. Late game, they are not. pRes income dictates the number of shotguns the marines will get in a game, and if they have poor res management, and poor plays with the shotguns, they will lose them, and thus the game. This sounds fine to me. But I don't like that shotguns are SO necessary to the strategy of marine play, that marines can never afford to invest in anything OTHER than shotguns, because in comparison, everything else can't accomplish the wide variety of things, and efficiency the shotgun can.

I disagree with Railo, I think gun decay times are fine. If a gorge is around, marines have to be careful with when and how they lose guns. If a gorge is not around, marines can worry a little less. If they have an engagement with aliens where they "almost win" (life forms must go heal), then they have an opportunity for their guns to be recovered. Fine by me. If the marine loses badly (life form not even hurt) he can guard the shotgun for a short period of time until it decays, opening up lots of potential plays.



I don't like typing essays on a touch screen. I'm out of town.

Isn't it obvious why it's a bad idea? Killing unarmored marines would become far too risky with just that change. Any decent marine would punish you to almost dead just by going for two swipes..
Simba
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25 March 2016 - 17:28 EDT
#15
Locklear says
Simba says
Locklear says
Making the sg have a faster fire rate than the fades swipe rate sounds like a really bad idea without changing other things..


Great, substantive post! :p

Shotguns are powerful. They are also expensive. This implies high risk, high reward. That sounds good to me. Early game, marines without shotguns are viable. Late game, they are not. pRes income dictates the number of shotguns the marines will get in a game, and if they have poor res management, and poor plays with the shotguns, they will lose them, and thus the game. This sounds fine to me. But I don't like that shotguns are SO necessary to the strategy of marine play, that marines can never afford to invest in anything OTHER than shotguns, because in comparison, everything else can't accomplish the wide variety of things, and efficiency the shotgun can.

I disagree with Railo, I think gun decay times are fine. If a gorge is around, marines have to be careful with when and how they lose guns. If a gorge is not around, marines can worry a little less. If they have an engagement with aliens where they "almost win" (life forms must go heal), then they have an opportunity for their guns to be recovered. Fine by me. If the marine loses badly (life form not even hurt) he can guard the shotgun for a short period of time until it decays, opening up lots of potential plays.



I don't like typing essays on a touch screen. I'm out of town.

Isn't it obvious why it's a bad idea? Killing unarmored marines would become far too risky with just that change. Any decent marine would punish you to almost dead just by going for two swipes..


Why did it work in ns1/why does it work in ns2c? Short answer, and it's a serious question cause I have no idea.
Kash
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25 March 2016 - 17:53 EDT
#16
increasing rate of fire alone would be bad yes... but that isn't the thing i'm proposing... the 3 things listed aren't separate choices... they are a bundle idea, each shot would be far less impactful than current shotgun hits... but they would come more frequently. and reloads would take the same amount of time but you'd have 8 shots to fire instead of 6.

By basic maths it was worked out that 0.54 rate of fire would equal exactly the same DPS as the current shotgun... I made it a RoF of 0.6 because otherwise what frozen said earlier would have been true.

theory crafting the numbers yeah it would be scary for a fade to engage a marine on 0 armour... but no scarier than it currently is if they guy is using a shotgun... because it would take 3 full meatshots to hit the same damage as 2 full meatshots with the current shotgun setup... and if the marine can hit those perfect hits 3 times in a row without fail then well played... otherwise we should expect human error and a few other things (hitreg, ping difference etc) to get in the way.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
Golden
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25 March 2016 - 23:28 EDT
#17
Simba says
Locklear says
Simba says
Locklear says
Making the sg have a faster fire rate than the fades swipe rate sounds like a really bad idea without changing other things..


Great, substantive post! :p

Shotguns are powerful. They are also expensive. This implies high risk, high reward. That sounds good to me. Early game, marines without shotguns are viable. Late game, they are not. pRes income dictates the number of shotguns the marines will get in a game, and if they have poor res management, and poor plays with the shotguns, they will lose them, and thus the game. This sounds fine to me. But I don't like that shotguns are SO necessary to the strategy of marine play, that marines can never afford to invest in anything OTHER than shotguns, because in comparison, everything else can't accomplish the wide variety of things, and efficiency the shotgun can.

I disagree with Railo, I think gun decay times are fine. If a gorge is around, marines have to be careful with when and how they lose guns. If a gorge is not around, marines can worry a little less. If they have an engagement with aliens where they "almost win" (life forms must go heal), then they have an opportunity for their guns to be recovered. Fine by me. If the marine loses badly (life form not even hurt) he can guard the shotgun for a short period of time until it decays, opening up lots of potential plays.



I don't like typing essays on a touch screen. I'm out of town.

Isn't it obvious why it's a bad idea? Killing unarmored marines would become far too risky with just that change. Any decent marine would punish you to almost dead just by going for two swipes..


Why did it work in ns1/why does it work in ns2c? Short answer, and it's a serious question cause I have no idea.


Fades have twice as much hp in ns1/ns2c.
loMe
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26 March 2016 - 09:55 EDT
#18
Let Mendasp explain NS1 Fades + Shotguns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl6qvfNLQiI
BauerJankins
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26 March 2016 - 23:28 EDT
#19
Shortpost because 5am rip
I think making it so that the marine has to hit more pellets/meatshots with the shotgun is a terribly bad idea because of the (at times) terribly bad hitreg. Also, @meph and kash, dont you think that this change would go towards the "problems in higher level of play" and would make it even harder for for lower level players to win marine rounds?!??!?!?!?!?!
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
Kash
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27 March 2016 - 05:11 EDT
#20
BauerJankins says
Shortpost because 5am rip
I think making it so that the marine has to hit more pellets/meatshots with the shotgun is a terribly bad idea because of the (at times) terribly bad hitreg. Also, @meph and kash, dont you think that this change would go towards the "problems in higher level of play" and would make it even harder for for lower level players to win marine rounds?!??!?!?!?!?!


Hitreg is no where near as bad as it once was, so to me that isn't a concern, as long as people have their servers set up properly, it shouldn't be any more of an issue than it is now.

As for the low skill play, I'll paraphrase wob "I believe that competitive games should be balanced at the highest level of play, then maybe tweak those balances if it causes serious problems in lower level play"

Also, it could also be possible that my changes make missing shots a little more forgiving, because you are able to shoot more often and at a higher rate of fire... so its possible it could actually help lower skill play a little.

I'm not 100% sure of all of the repercussions of the changes I propose, and i'm sure that there would be situations that occur that no one here has thought of. But I honestly think that doing this is more beneficial to all levels of play than buffing fades.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If medpacks are altered then this change would likely need to be delayed to see how the medpack alteration effects play... this was just an idea to address the problem many people seem to have... which is that fades feel too squishy against shotguns.

I honestly believe that rather than altering the fade in anyway, which would have repercussions elsewhere, which would then need to be balanced, the shotgun should be what we direct our attention to.
As most people know, on the field i'm pretty much laughable as a comp player, I can't shoot for shit. But with a shotgun in my hands I can be quite formidable at times... that tells me the skill ceiling for the shotgun is pretty low (or the skill floor is pretty high).

With my changes, shotguns would still be deadly in the right hands, but we would see less of the steamroller marine plays where one high skilled played somehow takes out a lerk, a fade and 2 skulks alone with maybe a med or two... it would still be possible, but it would be much less frequent.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
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