Just a quick note here, the discussion is great but about compmod:

If the community intends to continue making changes and tuning to CompMod, there will need to be a rather large organizational change: Someone will need to take charge of it and build a new team to discuss and implement changes as almost no one is left from the previous group (myself included as I no longer actively play ns2). How that comes about and how the tuning is handled is for the community to decide (I would recommend the new group get their own Slack channel on the NSL slack to start).

I don't think anyone in the community would like to assume such a responsibility. Current iteration of CompMod has appeared good so far but if players want it to be changed, I'd say go for it. Rantology has a point though that is to find a dedicated team, and it's not easy task to do. Competitive players still playing actively the game must fit the role. I'm greedy of anyone' idea, if you have some, please contact me and I'll see what we can do about it.

Well I don't think the game needs and major changes anymore so really any more ideas will probably be individual changes not needing a team to decide them. So isn't this forum good enough to discuss?

what I would like to see in future is that compmod can give a good a valid use to every weapon and other upgrades there are in ns2 (even railgun exos)

Wob says

Well I don't think the game needs and major changes anymore so really any more ideas will probably be individual changes not needing a team to decide them. So isn't this forum good enough to discuss?

Who will approve those minor changes?

Pelargir says

Wob says

Well I don't think the game needs and major changes anymore so really any more ideas will probably be individual changes not needing a team to decide them. So isn't this forum good enough to discuss?

Who will approve those minor changes?

Yeah good point...

I will!

you will what?

approve those minor changes!
with my self given right to decide everything

Kash and me discussed some stuff that are underused in current compmod and thought how to make good use in them.

flamethrower:
- attachment for LMG
- will replace rifle bash as secondary firemode (not usable while reload)

basically the flamethrower tries to be good at PvP but is not as good as the GL and at the same time it is not that much better than ther LMG. The flamethrower atm has the problem that equipping it brings more negatives (lack in PvP effectiveness) than positives (semi decent PvE effectiveness). With having it as attachment to an LMG the only drawback is the 10 pres cost and the research cost.

railgun exo:
- PvE exo. like arcs but still able to use agaisnt lifeforms but reduced damage to lifeforms (buff damage to buildings)
- need to be in lign of sight ofcourse

minigun exo:
- reduce damage against buildings

basically I thought about having a PvP and a PvE exo. No idea if this will work out but worth a try in my opinion

nanoshield:
- reduce usage cost
- remove the need to research it, make it available on armory (or other buildings that fit more)

never see it being used. I assume it's too pricey for this kind of effectiveness.

babblers:
- only 1 babbler egg at the same time
- 5 or 6 babblers per egg
- biomass 2
- no pres cost on producing babbler egg
-make them being able to attach to builings and make them look like they are attacked on the minimap (do damage to buildings armor as alternative)

atm babblers are just plain useless. With those changes a gorge could continue to provide a buff for aliens without the pres cost. Also they could be used as harrasing method on marine structures at the same time

webs:
- biomass 4
- cloaked by default
- 0.5 seconds freeze + 1 second slow

(the only use for webs I have seen so far is putting it infront of a PG otherwise due to their visibility they are ineffective)

clogs:
- 2 types of clogs
- type 1: as usual. can be cloaked with a shade nearby
- type 2: is like infestation so 1 building can be build on top of it (only structure. no drifters or other commander assistance)
-150 hp, non cloakable (for type 2)

my original wish was to make clogs only shadable. The 2nd type was kashs idea and I thought it was interesting.

advanced metabolize:
- biomass 6
- heals 10-20 hp more than already per usage

basically getting biomass 6 is quite useless if you are stuck on 2 hives atm. Increased effectiveness to balance the fact that getting it requires more tres now

stab:
- reduce delay between stab command and execution to the same as swipe is
- 2 second stab cooldown (blinking and swiping is possible during that cooldown)

stab is a third hive ability. In my opinion those abilities should cause orgasms to their respective lifeforms to use it (stomp and spores do it well in my opinion). Stab is just... meh... I'm no fade playre so I don't know why it's not getting used. I assume it is because there is such a huge delay between giving the command and the execution. That was a problem with railgun exos in the past aswell

let the discussions begin :)

Mephilles says

The 2nd type was kashs idea and I thought it was interesting.

Clogs...

Type 1 clog would literally be exactly the same as clogs are now, but you can cloak them with a nearby shade.

Type 2 (my idea) is that you have a second set of "clogs" using a smaller (around half height) in game model that acts like infestation and has no collision. You would be limited to placing 1 - 3 of them (per gorge) at a Pres cost of 1. they would have 150 health (alterable if needed) and it allows the commander to place structures on it, no drifters, ruptures, bonewalls etc... the structures wouldn't sit ON the clog, they would go through it due to the no collision. (I'm not sure if you could have it cause no collision to structures but still take damage... the idea is that you can shoot the clog to kill it before you start work on the structure.) These clogs would not be cloakable.

Babblers...

on the topic of the babblers being attachable to buildings, we discussed allowing them to cause armour damage similar to infestation (potentially at a lower rate) and also the idea that they cause no damage at all, but make the RT flash on the map similar to a parasite.

Stab...

I would also like to have the hiss sound removed... just because its annoying imo :P
But yeah, the stab should not take as long to "charge" it should be almost instant, similar to swipe... but with a cooldown of about 1.5 seconds before it can be used again.

Nanoshield...

I proposed maybe having Nanoshield automatically being unlocked with armour 1 or 2... but meph said the Armoury... I think they both make sense, but the armoury opens more potential tech path options for marines meaning we may see more starts that aren't "instant arms lab drop"

Exos...

The vision behind the exo changes is based loosely off HMG + Shotgun rushing...
So the Minigun Exo should be an alien killer (which it currently is) and the Railgun should be a structure killer. so reducing the miniguns structure damage noticeably is required and buffing the railgun structure damage is a must also... but i'm sure there is a place for exos in comp, its just going to take some balancing and making them work together.

But yeah, that's my "two cents" for now :P

Keep those discussions coming. Although we think about not touching CompMod till 276, we like every suggestions. I'll come to you later if we ever gather a new team to maintain CompMod.

Pelargir says

I'll come to you later if we ever gather a new team to maintain CompMod.

Its funny, me and Meph were discussing how we'd like to be on the team yesterday as well :P

Kash says

Pelargir says

I'll come to you later if we ever gather a new team to maintain CompMod.

Its funny, me and Meph were discussing how we'd like to be on the team yesterday as well :P

Well, if you're that interested, invite me on Steam and we'll talk further about this. :)

Anyone who wanna get access to our Slack for easier and faster discussion about potential upcoming changes, please bug me on Steam or on the website and send me your email address. I'll handle the rest. For your information, this access is free to everybody but no team has been decided yet to approve these changes. Will depend a lot on the next build and if we really need them.

Forums will remain open for longer discussion and for those who don't wanna bother joining our Slack. So keep those comments up!

Here is a list of what has been discussed (or tried to be in some cases :P ) so far... feel free to chip in with opinions and ideas also, they don't need to be on the list, if you have ideas not shown speak up, the more the merrier!

Marines -

1. Flamethowers to become an attachment, no longer does damage (or does much lower damage) disables structures (and umbra + spores etc). Low capacity increases reload time. No Pres cost, 20 Tres upgrade.
2. Grenades to become research only (potentially by grenade type) spawn with 1 grenade, cannot restock at armoury.
3. Exos 1. Remove and allow Marine to carry railgun with adjustments, 2. use single exo only, no double exo 3. remove minigun exo replace with GL exo and/or 4. Give exos a small range (5m ish) scan every 8 seconds.
4. Grenade Launchers to be replaced with Rocket Launchers (same damage, but no arc to trajectory and explodes on impact).
5. Nanoshield to auto research for free with armoury being built (no armoury, no nanoshield)?.


Aliens -

1. Possibly reduce the alien bite cone to help with low division marine loses. (or something else... no one has ideas here tbh)
2. Possibly introduce new hive shell and spur upgrades giving each upgrade type 3 options (like veils already have).
3. Adrenaline and camo need a fix (discuss).
4. Whips need to be fixed… not sure if there is anything the comp mod team can do here though.
5. Gorge web should be cloakable by nearby shades. And they should cause a 0.5 second freeze effect (can still look around and shoot but not move) followed by a 1 second slow.
6. Stab to be removed and replaced with acid rocket, a gorge spit like ability that only does damage to armour.
7. Xeno to be removed and replaced with a “stab-like” ability.
8. Gorge clogs should be cloakable.
9. Gorge mini-cyst placement. must be placed within a certain range of other cysts, acts as a small segment of infestation (does not spread infestation) can only have structures built on them (note: not echoed onto them)... (not yet discussed in full)
10. Babblers -
- 1 egg, 5 - 6 babblers costs 0 Pres otherwise unchanged.
- 1 egg, 5 - 6 babblers costs 0 Pres, no longer acts as armour. Only causes structure/armour damage, can be attached to structures to cause low damage.

Free nano-shield is a mistake - 1v2/3/4 engagements massively influential, buffs marines waaay too much.

Camo just needs map reveal bug fixed.
Adrenaline doesn't really need a fix. It increases skill floor for aliens where by celerity helps to reach the skill ceiling. Noobs should pick adrenaline, pros should pick celerity to be most effective.

Cloaked gorge webs are a terrible idea.

Cloaked clogs are a bad idea.

Gorge cysts don't seem necessary if they have to be linked to a cyst chain...

Babblers 0 pres but biomass 3. Probably needs to be a little pres investment

Wob says

Cloaked gorge webs are a terrible idea.

Reread, cloakable... not cloaked... if you still disagree, explain why?

Wob says

Cloaked clogs are a bad idea.

Why?

Wob says

Gorge cysts don't seem necessary if they have to be linked to a cyst chain...

Just because it isn't necessary it shouldn't be an option?

M1: Idk if this would be useful, but make sure to not force the attachment once its researched, unless you make it totally OP I would rather have the rifle bash.
M2: I would like to hear some reasoning for this. I think grenades are fine right now, in my team we regularly use them for hive pushes.
M3: I can't think of any reason why any of these changes would be needed or good, explain pls.
M4: Whats the point? Hitting PvE should be doable for everybody with the current GL, it doesn't need to be easier. And hitting players requires at least some skill right now, if its made easier damage would need to be nerfed once again, and Gls already don't do terribly much. If you want to reduce spam, which imo isn't a concern in comp, I don't see how this would help. Also good luck in ever finding a model...
M5: Maybe change its cost by -1, but its an ability that becomes OP real quick.

A1: I would wait until the CDT fixes the hit-reg like they promised, any changes now don't make much sense IMO. Plus I don't think aliens hitting too much is the main reason for increased alien-wins.
A2: Would be cool if you can come up with something decent.
A3: What exactly needs to be fixed here?
A4: +1 I guess
A5: This seems like a sure way to make a game 100% frustrating instead of fun. Come on. This is a change you can make once every single remaining player is confirmed to be masochist, then and only then would this be good. Taking away mobility in a fps-game is not good mechanic, especially if you can't see it coming. Stomp only gets away with it since it is on hive#3 and has a charge-up.
A6: Would take away the role of the Lerk as exclusive ranged unit(apart form gorge). Since its hive#3 it shouldn’t really matter though.
A7: reasoning? Xeno has a hearable charge-up already, Marines should have enough time to kill the skulk before it goes off.
A8: Running into invisible Walls is so fun... pretty much as bad as cloakable webs.
A9: Whats the point? Gorges can already place Infestation with the tunnels, plus this would dilute the alien-comm role for no reason at all.
A10: I think the only change babblers need is a fix for their horrible hitrate on moving targets.

caperb I think we are aiming more to change stuff for the sake of change and not for the sake of fixing stuff

Just so you all know, I'm not posting my personal list of things I want to see... it was a list of things that everyone on the slack has been talking about, so somethings I'm not going to be able to explain without having my biased show through... I'm just going to keep taking notes and summerizing what is being spoken about to keep everyone in the loop.

Also, the idea for most of these changes isn't to balance what we currently have, but to shake up comp... the gameplay is beginning to become stale, the same tech paths and tactics are being used pretty much constantly... if you go back and watch some season 2/3 matches, you'll see how much has changed in NS2 so far... that change should continue, the game should continue to evolve... otherwise we will be playing the same matches over and over until no one wants to play anymore.

Again, if anyone has thoughts, opinions or ideas we are all ears... no idea is a stupid idea (except for the stupid ones :P).

Kash says

Wob says

Cloaked gorge webs are a terrible idea.

Reread, cloakable... not cloaked... if you still disagree, explain why?

Webs are brilliant for small area of denial or forcing marines to grenade/weld them. Increasing the likelihood of actually getting caught in them which as caperp rightly pointed out, would suck. Movement inhibition is a really frustrating mechanism.

Kash says

Wob says

Cloaked clogs are a bad idea.

Why?

Clogs are strong because they are free, tank bullets, and break LoS. If you make them cloakable then I can forsee a lot of bug abuse of clogs to deliberately fuck up marine movement. Not a good PvP mechanic.



Kash says

Wob says

Gorge cysts don't seem necessary if they have to be linked to a cyst chain...

Just because it isn't necessary it shouldn't be an option?

That's not what I said but yes I think so. Aliens should be somewhat committed to being in the hive. If a gorge can fix marine pressure when all aliens are out of the hive, it kind of is a big buff in the way of encouraging 6 field players.

About next Patch, if the hitreg is fixed for marines, do we really need to buff marines? People are already hitting at 24-30% accuracy, and if you get better hitreg, how's the % gonna be then?

Imho i think there's gonna be some balancing or rather just pop the health + armor on some alien lifeforms

Wob says

Webs are brilliant for small area of denial or forcing marines to grenade/weld them. Increasing the likelihood of actually getting caught in them which as caperp rightly pointed out, would suck. Movement inhibition is a really frustrating mechanism.

Fair point, but currently webs aren't being used because they can be seen from a great distance and destroyed with ease... so if the slow mechanic remained the same as it is now, but they were made cloakable, would that still be an issue?

Wob says

Clogs are strong because they are free, tank bullets, and break LoS. If you make them cloakable then I can forsee a lot of bug abuse of clogs to deliberately fuck up marine movement. Not a good PvP mechanic.

good point.

Wob says

That's not what I said but yes I think so. Aliens should be somewhat committed to being in the hive. If a gorge can fix marine pressure when all aliens are out of the hive, it kind of is a big buff in the way of encouraging 6 field players.

Gorges wouldn't be able to do that... this is the "mini-clog"/"clog type 2" idea that has been discussed... its both above in this thread and in the slack... they wouldn't be able to recyst harvesters or anything like that, they aren't placing a traditional cyst... it would be them placing a tiny patch of infestation that can be shot and destroyed. the "cyst" wouldn't spread infestation, it would BE infestation, but with limits... you can't use comm abilities on it, it would still be subject to pathing (so no building in vents, on walls or on resource nodes etc.) and so on... so if marines were to decyst an RT, the comm would still need to recyst it etc.

Kash says

Also, the idea for most of these changes isn't to balance what we currently have, but to shake up comp... the gameplay is beginning to become stale, the same tech paths and tactics are being used pretty much constantly... if you go back and watch some season 2/3 matches, you'll see how much has changed in NS2 so far... that change should continue, the game should continue to evolve... otherwise we will be playing the same matches over and over until no one wants to play anymore.

Again, if anyone has thoughts, opinions or ideas we are all ears... no idea is a stupid idea (except for the stupid ones :P).

If a game is "stale" for you, don't you think it's time to stop playing the game?
Compmod team exists here to balance the game for competitive play because the original game was not balanced enough and we didn't want changing the base game for pub players to have a balanced game.
Thus, this "we're changing the game so it's not stale" mentality, how is this approved?
If you're going to "change a game to have fun" you're going to see a lot of higher div players leaving because of your unnecessary changes to the game (me included).

You said that people go same techpaths, but I bet you haven't even tried out different paths in pcw's/scrims or anywhere else. Many different openings are viable on both marines and aliens. Did you see anyone going shift hive before different teams found out that it suits them better? I also like bio 2 opening so skulks take an extra bullet.
As for marines there are mines, sentries, phase gates, arms lab, 2 arms labs, relocate, shotguns. Is this not enough for you? What else do you want..

There will always be flavor of the month whether you like it or not and there's nothing you can do about it. Changing the game to "shake up compmod to force different openings so the game isn't as stale" is an excuse to you being bored with the game, why not just stop playing and find a game you're more fond of?

well what I want of compmod is that every weapon or upgrade there is should be viable at every level of play. For example 90% of the people go celerity (and probably 100% of div 1 people prefer celerity over adrenaline).

99% of the people prefer minigun exo over railgun exo

who goes flamethrower ever? and why?

then I never see babblers, webs and stab aswell

Spring says

If a game is "stale" for you, don't you think it's time to stop playing the game?
Compmod team exists here to balance the game for competitive play because the original game was not balanced enough and we didn't want changing the base game for pub players to have a balanced game.
Thus, this "we're changing the game so it's not stale" mentality, how is this approved?
If you're going to "change a game to have fun" you're going to see a lot of higher div players leaving because of your unnecessary changes to the game (me included).

You said that people go same techpaths, but I bet you haven't even tried out different paths in pcw's/scrims or anywhere else. Many different openings are viable on both marines and aliens. Did you see anyone going shift hive before 2eZ/doityourself did it? I also like bio 2 opening so skulks take an extra bullet.
As for marines there are mines, sentries, phase gates, arms lab, 2 arms labs, relocate, shotguns. Is this not enough for you? What else do you want..

There will always be flavor of the month whether you like it or not and there's nothing you can do about it. Changing the game to "shake up compmod to force different openings so the game isn't as stale" is an excuse to you being bored with the game, why not just stop playing and find a game you're more fond of?

I think you misunderstood me a little here, so i'll try to clear it up and also clear any misunderstanding about myself in the process if possible.

1. about the tech paths, I'll confess to not trying certain marine paths due to the teams I have comm'ed for all insisting that they "need" the upgrades... but I have explored early mines, early sentries, instant 2nd IP, relocates and instant shotguns... i've even done rush exo... for aliens, I've tried all hive starts, i've tried early hive drop to rush leap, i regularly use early biomass 2, I've done delayed onos so I can gorge as comm and echo things out as they are needed, I've explored drifter play, i've done fast expansion, i've done holding 2rts to allow more aggressive play... don't think I haven't explored options, its what I enjoy doing... hence me liking the idea of more options to choose from. Have you even seen me comm? :P

2. I never said it IS stale... especially not for me, I can't think of a game I enjoy anywhere near as much as I enjoy NS2... but there is a reason the population is in decline in the comp scene... and if you look at comp 4 seasons ago, you'll see that massive changes have happened since then... patch 275 was hyped up to be a big change up and to some people seemed like a game saver, The patch brought a lot of nice things, and the CDT did a great job, but it didn't make any changes to the game itself other than a new map that all I have heard is complaints about (most of which I disagree with)... because nothing is changing, no one is coming back, people are still leaving and its a downward spiral.

3. I'd like to continue to have fun with NS2 for as long as possible... the best way to do that is to try to appeal to a larger audience to attract more people and keep the playerbase alive... that isn't happening right now... more people are leaving than people joining... I can only assume that the reason for that is because people are getting bored, to them the game is becoming stale.

I'm by no means the authority on the matter, i'm just expressing the way I see things and the way I feel about them, you are free to disagree, to criticize etc. but to me, unless something is constantly evolving, it is dying... and I want NS2 to stay alive for as long as possible.

Kash says

3. I'd like to continue to have fun with NS2 for as long as possible... the best way to do that is to try to appeal to a larger audience to attract more people and keep the playerbase alive... that isn't happening right now... more people are leaving than people joining... I can only assume that the reason for that is because people are getting bored, to them the game is becoming stale.

Games are not brought back to life by inviting old people who have left back to the game. The only way you're going to do this is by publicity, advertising. These old school players won't have any more connections to get even more people to join, you need to let the rest of the world know about this game. I assure you, if more money went into more contests this game would be more alive than before.
I personally think the game was more alive back then due to NS2WC, not balance or game changes, but to each their own.

Spring says

Games are not brought back to life by inviting old people who have left back to the game. The only way you're going to do this is by publicity, advertising. These old school players won't have any more connections to get even more people to join, you need to let the rest of the world know about this game. I assure you, if more money went into more contests this game would be more alive than before.
I personally think the game was more alive back then due to NS2WC, not balance or game changes, but to each their own.

Me and Meph actually have something in the works to try to do this as well... we are just waiting for contact from those that can make it happen.

Spring says

Did you see anyone going shift hive before 2eZ/doityourself did it?

I've actually seen like 18 teams that did it before 2eZ. My previous team (2hrsLater) mainly went Shift Hive first and yet, it was during Season 4. Nothing has really changed ingame till now so I won't say you've been the first team going for Shift Hive first. It's even quite the opposite. During past seasons, it was division 2 teams that were finding out strategies and new meta on NS2 competitive, not Div 1 or Prem div. They might have improved it, at best but nothing more.