Expand the Gather System

medi0crates
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17 January 2016 - 14:49 EST
#1
So I played my first gather last night... and realized that you have an awesome system here. Very similar to TF2Lobby/TF2Center for Team Fortress 2... except on a way smaller scale.

I have a dream... I have a dream where everyone who wants to play unstacked rookie-free games in an organized manner can do it all with one website. A dream where the NS2 community thrives because of how easy it is to have fun playing competitively or casually.


My dream looks a little something like this: http://i.imgur.com/6F4dH6p.png (ms paint mockup)



"NS2 doesn't have the community to do that!" I hear you say, "you can't split EU and US like every other game does, we're too tiny!" I hear you scream... but if NS2 is ever going to grow we need to build the infrastructure now for it to thrive. Worst case scenario, people waiting in the various gathers can call everyone in the main gather chat to join one gather...

If ENSL were to do this, I'd be happy to donate my server (No Rookies Pub Captains) to use as the US Open 8v8 server (which would bring of a lot of my community to this website), as well as another server to use as the EU Open, and also willing to donate my time in any way possible to keep things running smoothly.
Locklear
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17 January 2016 - 15:14 EST
#2
I had a dream too, but the dream is dead.

This is actually a pretty good idea though.
CalTech
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17 January 2016 - 17:23 EST
#3
May be too many lobbies to start with, but if/when it expands its certainly feasible.

I was going to tell Deck the other day that you should donate your server!

Either way, great idea.

Now only if Wyzcrack wasnt the POS that he is...
PandaClaws
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17 January 2016 - 18:28 EST
#4
I think there's something to this idea of building the infrastructure for what you wish the community will become. Rather than waiting for the community to grow miraculously, only to find that our current infrastructure can't support it.

But it is important to be careful not to expand the infrastructure so much, that you stretch the existing community too thin and risk killing what little remains.
Alite
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17 January 2016 - 22:45 EST
#5
I like the idea of adding 8v8 gathers for people who don't want to play 6v6's, it would make it way easier to seed the NRP server and probably attract a lot of casual players who usually don't gather. Great idea I'd love to see it implemented!
AQUA5
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18 January 2016 - 06:13 EST
#6
I really like the idea. I believe it has also been a heated debate for some time now whether this kind of thing would thin out the player base further by separating no-rookie from competitive players, however I feel this is already happening in a superficial manner. From my experience some of the higher rank players can be quite negative to the idea of casual-rookie-free gather play and opt for strict competitive like team cooperation. This forces players to pick and choose specific games creating minor gaps in the player base and balance issues. As a result of this, from my understanding, private gathers have been established recently due to the influx of new players joining through the regular gather system, hindering the veteran players. This has been expressed in some of the recent general discussion posts. I think implementing this idea would help solve some of these issues as players would be able to choose what game style they prefer to participate in, as well as help new players gain some experience before they decide to transition into a more competitive play style. Having such options and adding a dedicated 8v8 server would defiantly help this community expand.
Tinki
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18 January 2016 - 07:07 EST
#7
If you want to bring enough people you will need a huge promotion from UWE or an integration of the gathers in the ns2 main page. Some people with >1k hours don't even know gather exist.

I made a suggestion few weeks ago and i'm sure i wasn't the first to ask for this. No answer....
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/139620/gather-ingame

Here's another post from someone else, still no answer from UWE...
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2261935

Your idea is good and can be an answer to what ns2 lack the most : a matchmaking system. Sadly you'll need the help of UWE for this to work.
Kash
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18 January 2016 - 08:00 EST
#8
I think the 8 vs 8 gather could be very interesting, and fills the role of the "casual gather" that people have been talking about on the forums for a while... It could also attract a lot of people, Especially if comp mod isn't used, because a lot of people are put off due to the changes made by comp mod.

I would love to see something like this implemented.

I don't understand the concerns of "spreading people thin" if we start with something like just adding a single 8 vs 8 tab that will direct to the NRP server, the options are already in place... if it is popular, adding another server up isn't going to be overly difficult surely.

From that point its just a case of adding more as/when its needed.
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
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18 January 2016 - 08:09 EST
#9
Good idea!!!! I like it. But i don't think that 8 vs 8 is good idea, because comp mod created for 6 vs 6. Maybe let's try 7 vs 7 first or we need another one comp mod for new formats.

p.s. i'm already see how i'm flashing my lerk with too many marines in the field.
Kash
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18 January 2016 - 19:23 EST
#10
Well, I asked UWE (via hugh and wasabione) on twitter if they would be interested in integrating this idea into the NS2 menu.

see the answers I got here: https://twitter.com/KasharicDaims/status/689068860541145088
"Out with the gorge, into the ready room" F4 - iSay
medi0crates
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18 January 2016 - 19:37 EST
#11
Tinki says
If you want to bring enough people you will need a huge promotion from UWE or an integration of the gathers in the ns2 main page. Some people with >1k hours don't even know gather exist.

I made a suggestion few weeks ago and i'm sure i wasn't the first to ask for this. No answer....
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/139620/gather-ingame

Here's another post from someone else, still no answer from UWE...
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2261935

Your idea is good and can be an answer to what ns2 lack the most : a matchmaking system. Sadly you'll need the help of UWE for this to work.


I don't understand why the servers used for gather don't even have "ensl.org" or "come play gathers @ ensl.org" in the server name.

However, I have 175 people in my server's Steam group, and most if not all of them would switch to this system if 8v8 was implemented.

101 says
Good idea!!!! I like it. But i don't think that 8 vs 8 is good idea, because comp mod created for 6 vs 6. Maybe let's try 7 vs 7 first or we need another one comp mod for new formats.

p.s. i'm already see how i'm flashing my lerk with too many marines in the field.


Well, on my server we have been using *Pub Friendly* CompMod, which has been tweaked to be more balanced for 8v8 and 9v9. So far the changes have resulted in a much more even win rate for each team (close to 50:50 with aliens winning slightly more often than marines), but could always be changed more to better suit the gather system and ENSL.
ydy
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18 January 2016 - 20:10 EST
#12
medi0crates says
I don't understand why the servers used for gather don't even have "ensl.org" or "come play gathers @ ensl.org" in the server name.
Puts the barrier to entry lower than low, then misfits can and will just bubble in, same reason as for your server having a password
medi0crates
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18 January 2016 - 20:25 EST
#13
eddy says
medi0crates says
I don't understand why the servers used for gather don't even have "ensl.org" or "come play gathers @ ensl.org" in the server name.
Puts the barrier to entry lower than low, then misfits can and will just bubble in, same reason as for your server having a password


My server has a password with the password in the server name because rookies can't read server names.

And with my idea, even if some "misfits bubble in", then they can play Open 8v8 and you can just keep playing IM 6v6 without them.
medi0crates
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18 January 2016 - 21:52 EST
#14
At the very least, we can all agree the gather system has great potential but is sadly inadequate, right?
Sardine
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19 January 2016 - 01:21 EST
#15
What do you think is inadequate about it, other than it doesnt have an 8v8 option? (which I don't think is a bad thing personally)
Starcetereus
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19 January 2016 - 01:56 EST
#16
I like this idea. Most pub good players outside of the NSL community settle for playing pubs with rookies because they don't like the high stress environment of competitive gathers, or are intimidated by the fact that they're playing with competitive people, and those competitive people expect them to know how to play the game like pros. They want to play with decent players rather than rookies but don't feel like being yelled at by the best players in the world. In fact, that is the main appeal of Tactical Gamer to the regulars of that server, the fact that they get to play with decent players because the rookies get bumped. To most casual players, their options are limited to playing traditional pubs like DMD, LF, IBIS, where roughly half the server are rookies, or playing totalitarian servers like Tactical Gamer where if you aren't a member of their community you get bumped, and if you don't follow their strict rules to the letter you get banned. Also this could result in more division 3/4 teams.
aaa
chris
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19 January 2016 - 04:51 EST
#17
I happen to agree the current gather system is pretty inadequate.

When I rewrote the system last year from this (www.ensl.org/gathers/10338) the goal was 1) The core of the community on the gathers page could use something better 2) Reduce load on ensl.org. I remember getting feedback on my goofy prototype to Kash et al at the TAW meetup - we thought it was adequate at the time to cater to the hardcore of high skill players for the last gathers page but alas hindsight is 20-20

Then simple (rip), fed up with how broken the old gathers page was, pushed me to launch the goofy prototype asap and slashed my feature list to get it out fast. On first deploy, the rate of gather formation doubled overnight and it stayed that way until December (nice to have problem #1). When December came around UWE took back ns2 and sales were back on. Number of high skilled players came back (nice to have problem #2). Influx of rookies drove existing skilled players into gathers (nice to have problem #3). I don't know what the rate of gather formation is since December, but it's definitely higher than before.

You'd expect the player numbers to abate come December/January like in previous years (see steamcharts) but numbers are still trending upwards. So gathers has become more than an outlet for pros like before. And the shortcomings will be more apparent if numbers keep going up.

So what's being done? Lots, but slowly. I suppose the main thing is I'm laying the foundation for multiple gathers with custom/arbitrary player eligibility and gather rules to be engaged at peak times. However the admins are wary of rushing into this prematurely thereby hurting the ability of people to run a gather - so it's a wait and see depending on the numbers situation and no guarantees

The discussion and criticism is welcome. The problems (and makeshift solutions) outlined by the pros down to the gather-rookies are good and guide the things we should be focusing on. Like I said, these are all nice-to-have problems. In the meantime remember to be polite please...
101
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19 January 2016 - 07:26 EST
#18
Starcetereus says
Most pub good players outside of the NSL community settle for playing pubs with rookies because they don't like the high stress environment of competitive gathers.

I'm agree with it.
Sephy
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19 January 2016 - 12:51 EST
#19
Hey there, please keep debating this peacefully, we are very interested by the thoughts of everyone and we are also discussing this internally and we will provide you the NSL's opinon as soon as we can.
medi0crates
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19 January 2016 - 19:03 EST
#20
Sardine says
What do you think is inadequate about it, other than it doesnt have an 8v8 option? (which I don't think is a bad thing personally)


Can't have multiple gathers going at once, no division of skill, no division of continents. What you have here is the only website for organized NS2 play, basically the only "matchmaking" in the whole game, and it can only facilitate 12 people at a time. You end up with people joining and leaving the current gather constantly in order to try to get into the "best" gather. And if a European server wins the server vote, I'm out!

Also it would be nice if you could login through Steam instead of having to make an account here.
medi0crates
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19 January 2016 - 19:57 EST
#21
Here's another (possibly better) idea with more realistic initial numbers: http://i.imgur.com/Zaw0kfr.png
reknet
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20 January 2016 - 11:27 EST
#22
I like the idea but it seems that there's a quicker implementation (well, not for the 8v8/casual part of it). What's below may be more of a stop gap rather than a full revamp like medi suggests. If the number of players in a gather queue was unlocked from 12 it would allow self segmentation by skill (and probably favoritism... which is fine).

For example, 2 gathers let out at the same time and everyone is spamming the join gather button. Instead of having the 12 lucky fast clickers join, allow anyone into the queue for the 60s countdown. So all 24+ players get in, vote captains/server/etc. and then 12 players are picked. This would be similar to the high skill gather.

Now the remainder players are tossed back into the gather queue where all people who didn't make the last gather must be picked (unless this number is greater than 12, then do the above process one more time). If the number is less than 12, allow new joiners to the gather.

This would seem to solve the issue playing the gather lotto using the regather/leave gather. You get into the best gather by skill, friends can play together, and gatherbots don't clog up the whole process.
Deck
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20 January 2016 - 13:14 EST
#23
I think having 2 gathers: a 6 v 6 and a 8 v 8 is a decent idea. The only way the 8 v 8 is going to work though is if more players are brought into the gather system. I think this would have to be advertised on the NS2 homepage/and in NS2 when you open it. People would have to look at this like it's the best solution to the lack of matchmaking in NS2.

I do think the majority of players that come to this website currently would continue to play the 6 v 6 gathers. So again, for the 8 v 8 system to work, this would have to be advertised and make it easy for pub players that want a better game to go through this system. I suggest 2 gathers, no need to make it more complicated:

6 v 6 Comp
8 v 8 Casual

If the 8 v 8 doesn't get backing by UWE and/or if it doesn't work - go back to the current system. I think the post above about having a div 1 gather goes against the gather system - it's an open place for people to play comp NS2 if they want, not exclusive. Due to the large difference in skill, I understand why there are invite only gathers. I'm just not sure that should be promoted on the website.
Dean0
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20 January 2016 - 15:56 EST
#24
Hi guys,

with the change of the hoster i rethinked the naming to let people know that there is a ensl.org.
My Servers are now called "ENSL.org Competitive #1(2) [DE]".
Maybe we can find a convention to make it visible that there is a organization behind, later maybe 6v6 in it or something...

loMe
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20 January 2016 - 19:16 EST
#25
Dean0, thank you. I was planning to get into contact with server hosts to ask them to add ENSL.org to the server name as Medi0 mentioned since it could bring more people to the website at the very least.

Also, Sephy will be posting some more information about what our plans and thoughts are on all of this discussion probably by tomorrow afternoon. We gotta fix it up since Sephy's English isn't very great :P
Hadesia
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21 January 2016 - 22:59 EST
#26
"Join 6v6 games at ENSL.ORG" (=clear & sober invitation) on the server names [+ something (very!) fancy on the website like : http://imgur.com/9JcSZK3 =)=)]

Extra-thought:
Vocabulary to get newcommers and make them feel safe : free, welcome, new, easy, thank you, ask for help, open,... --> Add them (and more) to your server names so "ensl.org" is spammed on the servers list.
Example : "Try something new! @ensl.org"/"Tired of pub games? Try gathers at ensl.org!"/"Join fast, easy and free games at ensl.org!"/"Your new ns2 experience is at ensl.org!", etc.
Issue : when voting for the servers, gatherers may get confused with the names.
Sephy
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22 January 2016 - 06:32 EST
#27
Hello, before we address the most recent suggestions we would like remind you the context of what NSL Gathers are designed for.
The main goals of NSL Gather are :
- Provide a way to play with skilled players (in comparison to the average pub’s players)
- Promote a competitive way of gaming established by NSL Mod(+CompMod) and NSL Rules.
- Form a bridge to facilitate players’ transition into the competitive league offered by the NSL.
- To help develop and facilitate the creation of new teams.

Currently NSL Gathers follow a simple procedure:
- An automated matchmaking system which lets players select the captains in order to pick teams according to their skill level to create a balanced game.
- Rules Codex which is designed to let the players be able to play in a good atmosphere with equal treatment towards everyone. It’s also designed to force the participants to play as a team and make them communicate with their teammates.
- Having all users on TeamSpeak during every gathers.
- Playing one full map with each team playing a side on Aliens and Marines.. (for about 30-60min~)

At the moment, we have experienced an unprecedented increase in the number of people playing Gathers.. This can be explained by several main factors :
- With the update of our Gather application, the number of Gathers doubled overnight and it stayed that way until December.
- Also in December UWE took back NS2 and sales were back up.
- Number of high skilled players came back.
- An influx of rookies drove existing skilled players towards Gathers.
- The improvements made to hit reg in recent patches.
- Hardening our Rules Codex to prevent toxic behavior.

That’s a summary (not the complete one) of the situation, so now, the question asked is: how can we logistically expand the scope of Gathers while keeping intact its fundamental purpose?

I’m going to split the remainder of this post into three separate topics:
1) The Continental Split
2) Expanding the Format
3) Our Future Plans

I) The Continental Split
Currently, considering our meager player base (realistically speaking) we won't be splitting Gathers by continent. Since Season 3, EU & US (& AU) players have competed in the same league and in the same Gather. We see that as a positive thing, as it ensures every player is used to and comfortable with playing on any server regardless of it’s location. It’s rare to have more than 150ms difference, because we tried to select from the best server for both continents.


From reading the forums it seems that some think we need to build a more robust infrastructure in case of a sudden growth in the player base. The infrastructure is already here. We have enough servers on both continents to handle just about every team's’ matches and Gathers in the same day. Please don’t misunderstand infrastructure and player base. We cannot see a split happening unless we reach the point of three concurrent Gathers running at the same time with enough players from both continents (12 EU + 12 NA + 12 Mix) on a regular basis (6-7 days a week). Basically our position is that there will always be EU players participating in NA Gathers and vice-versa as it is. On top of that AUS players will always be forced to play with ping imbalances. If we were to introduce a continental split it wouldn’t change the diversity already in place. The purpose of server voting is to provide the best possible location for everyone participating.

2) Expanding the Format
For a long time, The NSL has continuously searched for differents ways to attract NS2 players to the competitive scene. Some of the things we’ve done include:
- Advertising in public matches to join the ENSL.
- Worked with other NS2 websites and community to relay information (NS2News).
- Used an official NSL Twitter for small announcements.
- Streamed & promoted most league’s matches with Casters giving live commentary.
- Advertised on UWE’s website and forums.
- Utilized our Gather System as an educational arena to let players improve and find a team more easily.
- We hosted several tournaments to bring in new players (Newcomers Tournament, Custom Maps Cup, Skulks With Shotguns, and soon to be a Nations Cup).


Let’s now examine what would potentially happen if we were to create a new 8v8 format for Gathering. I’d first like to point out that NSL Mod (and therefore CompMod) is designed for a 6v6 format. Although we recognize that there is a pub-friendly version that is used on the Captains No Rookies server, we have legitimate concerns about expanding. One obvious reasons is that it doesn’t fit in with the format of our league. Gathers are supposed to be a fun way to practice for the season when PCWs are not an option. Additionally, we believe that it will compound issues we already have in 6v6’s - players not showing up, in-game disputes and trolling. Most of the potentially new players are not familiar with how to Gather in the first place and the learning/growing pains that will come with them will be problematic if not burdensome to manage. Finally, the requirement of 16 players for a single Gather could lead to increased queue times across both formats. That being said, we know there is a desire for a more casual approach to Gathers, and it might be interesting to experiment and try out a 7v7 format in order cater to that player base. We believe it would still retain the competitive aspect of the NSL while being more friendly to newcomers and less serious players.

3) Our Future Plans
As many of us know, there is a wide range of behaviors and emotions that people in this community go through when playing Gathers. While our main goal is to fill Gathers, another large part of our job is to handle players’ behavior in order to sustain a friendly and welcoming environment for anyone interested in competitive NS2. To achieve that we needed to eliminate toxicity and detrimental behavior by being strict with the rules. We believe there has been some great progress in that endeavor. But alas, this momentum can only carry us so far. As things within the Gather system continue to evolve with more players each day, new challenges and difficulties will arise. One way we could alleviate this would be to expand our moderator/admin team. Personally I think this is not the best, or at least the only, approach. Our rules need to be the foundation for facilitating cooperation among this community, such that we can minimize violations without requiring admin intervention. We will continue to evaluate our rules and see if there are any ways to make them more concise and absent of any loopholes. One example that comes to mind is people abusing ELO. A simple fix to that is locking teams at 6 players.

So to wrap everything up, we will give the 7v7 casual format a shot and see what happens. If it brings in a bunch of new players, awesome! If not, not big deal. Ultimately, the more players coming to ENSL.org the better. Depending on what we observe, we may add other formats, such as “high skilled” Gathers. The problem with that, though, is determining what constitutes “high skill.” For now, at least, there is a private, invite-only Gather group managed by Golden to serve those players. There are a few other ideas we have in mind but they’re basically in their infancy and not worth getting into right now.

Again, as always, we appreciate your input and concerns regarding Gathers and will continue to adapt to the growing player base. When the technical aspects of the new changes are available we will notify you.


TL:DR There will be no continental split. We will test out a 7v7 casual format. In time we will potentially add other formats as well ("high skill").
Sardine
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22 January 2016 - 22:50 EST
#28
je t'aime sephy
Tinki
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25 January 2016 - 19:20 EST
#29
It can brings new players but again, ns2 players with 1k hours don't even know what or how gather works.

*Did the new dev team contact you ? Would love to see the ENSL and uwe working together for this.
Sephy
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26 January 2016 - 11:52 EST
#30
I didn't receive any messages from them regarding the "Gather". Currently we're still developing our projects. In addition to our todo list, i'm also working on Steam OpenID, but nothing more to announce so don't waste your time asking and please wait ^^.
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