[POLL] S11 Spawns/Mappicks/bans

Mega
1942
pubstars
Admins
League Admin
Posts
200
Location
Germany
Joined
28 September 2009
8 March 2017 - 17:43 CET
#1
http://www.ensl.org/polls/52


Would you like to play in S11 with either:

1) No Fixed Spawns, No Mappicks (leave everything how it was)

2) ONLY Fixed Spawns, No Mappicks. (Marines Aliens spawn both rounds on the same Locations)

3) ONLY Mappicks, No Fixed Spawns (Both Teams ban and pick Maps inb4 inb4 the Match)

4) Add Mappicks AND Fixed Spawns (Marines and Aliens spawn both rounds on the same Locations and chose which Maps to pick of the pool and which to ban.)




Fixed Spawns:
Pros:
-Both Teams have the same Spawns and same chances.
-There will be no "omg summit alien north GG, omg Tram alien south spawn gg"

Negatives:
-Map spawn variety and the Random factor reduced that can make games interesting from a streamers perspective get lost.
-You know from the start where the enemy is so strategy will get kinda stubborn you can play textbook Games ??
- For the Stream viewers its gonna be the same Strategy's over and over again ?


Map pick/ban process instead of preset maps:
Pros:
- You don't have to play Maps you don't like cause you can ban them.
- You can try to get the other Team on a map you think you can can take points of them.

Negatives:
- New or unpopular maps will be nearly never played.
- For the Stream viewers its gonna be the same Maps over and over.


Post more pros or negatives below and take part in the Vote.
BauerJankins
5841
seize & decyst
Referees
Referee
Posts
338
Location
Paderborn, Germany
Joined
20 October 2013
8 March 2017 - 20:38 CET
#2
i think there should be a more strict map rotation for the season, then i think most people would be fine with SET maps for the season... as of right now most people would want map picks instead, because we have mesh in the rotation (hasn't been played since changes... again) - at least that's what i think and im sure a lot of people agree with that
http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
Home
6925
Heidis Bergziegen
Gather Moderators
Classic Gather Moderator
Posts
113
Location
Germany
Joined
27 January 2016
9 March 2017 - 00:47 CET
#3
I would like to see fix spawns to make matches more fair. To achieve some variation it is good to have a big map pool to compensate for fixed spawns.
Ixian
6200
Shoutcasters
tw.tv/thesingingskulk
Posts
110
Location
Denmark
Joined
17 March 2014
9 March 2017 - 04:58 CET
#4
I agree with the point BauerJankins is making.


(concerning map pick/ban) Negatives:
- New or unpopular maps will be nearly never played.
- For the Stream viewers its gonna be the same Maps over and over.

The addition of a pick/ban process for group stages, can add an entirely new dynamic of preperation and strategy.I doubt we will see the same maps over and over - it would be idiotic of all teams to sit themselves on tram, jambi and veil, and no better than the current system, where you cannot try to exploit the enemy team's disadvantages/shortcomings. You are not going to want to go into an unfavored matchup, and at some point one team is going to prove themselves dominant on certain maps, meaning other maps will be played more. This system will naturally make sure than some maps are not just played on, and "lets get this over with", as many feel about maps like descent, but actively chosen and played with alot more mindfulness, as if you pick one of the odd maps, you have a plan. This will be better entertainment in the long run, as teams will play more interesting matches.

Yes, teams who can play all maps, are going to be favored, but since when is being more skilled not being favored? It is how it is.

tldr: the 2nd point about negatives is just plain bonkers.

While new maps are nice, and ensl should encourage new maps as a means to continue to evolve the metagame, and keep the game fresh, it should not do so at the sake of competitiveness. One of the products of the season is to crown a champion - those who conquered the rest, those who are skilled enough so that when the stars align themselves, they take the championship home. A competitive season which intends to crown a champion, should provide the means to do so. Some maps simply aren't balanced of the newer maps.

The problem here is: "Then where are the new maps going to get feedback from?". I dont know. Gathers? People dont generally play off maps in gathers. Why? either because they want balanced games, which is a kind of feedback in itself, or because of the culture of joining a gather to play a higher-than-pub level game and not wanting to be frustrated by playing new maps. Neither of these points are going to change any time soon. Neither gathers nor the season seems like a fitting place for new maps. Maptesting seems like the way to go, but you can't make people who dont want to, play it - which seems to be a general sentiment that that is fine, when it is in the season.

tldr: 1st point is also slightly bonkers.


As for fixed spawns, it seems fitting for some maps, like tram to force marine south spawn. Not really sure if I want any other forced spawns though. Descent has merit to for north/south, but thats due to poor map design of vents in their base, which honestly should be done something about. Descent is a great map, but has some fatal, unfun floors, which forced spawn merely is an attempt to alliviate the impact of these floors, rather than fix them.
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
Tyr
6015
seize & decyst
Admins
Gather Admin
Posts
71
Location
Sweden
Joined
8 January 2014
9 March 2017 - 10:48 CET
#5
Keep set maps(no picks), and have set spawns (south/north tram/descent etc). Otherwise we'll run with a season where the majority picks the same maps over and over again except that one team that's gonna play descent and mesh.

Set spawns increase the balance somewhat with that both teams have equal starts and from there on it's best team that wins.
Set maps(pre-determined) make sure that all maps are in rotation to force teams to play and be good at every map presented in the season instead of a select few.
Home
6925
Heidis Bergziegen
Gather Moderators
Classic Gather Moderator
Posts
113
Location
Germany
Joined
27 January 2016
9 March 2017 - 12:22 CET
#6
Tbh it would be also fine to not have fixed spawns if you make the second round having the same spawns as the first round.
Bicsum
2710
Heidis Bergziegen
Posts
93
Location
EU
Joined
19 April 2012
9 March 2017 - 12:31 CET
#7
+1 for map picks

If one map is not chosen at all, then it is a sign of the map not being good enough. However, I do not necessarily think that new maps will not be played at all. It suggests that every team automatically deems a new map as bad, just for being new, but I don't think that will be the case.

I think that underdog teams can greatly profit from picking underplayed maps, because playing on a map they're more familiar with than the presumably better team, gives them a better chance of winning , which is good for competition.

edit: optionally, there could be a rule, that bans the map that got picked the most from the next seasons map pool.
Nightsy
6452
Disqualified
Posts
91
Location
Munich, Buthan
Joined
18 September 2014
9 March 2017 - 13:59 CET
#8
Tyr says
Keep set maps(no picks), and have set spawns (south/north tram/descent etc). Otherwise we'll run with a season where the majority picks the same maps over and over again except that one team that's gonna play descent and mesh.

Set spawns increase the balance somewhat with that both teams have equal starts and from there on it's best team that wins.
Set maps(pre-determined) make sure that all maps are in rotation to force teams to play and be good at every map presented in the season instead of a select few.


+1 for set maps
+1 for set spawns (comm checks spawn at beginning anyway, so its not like a set spawn changes anything drastically)
herakles
2242
CanMercForFinals.
Comp. Mod Council
Member
Posts
122
Location
Versailles, France
Joined
17 February 2011
9 March 2017 - 14:39 CET
#9
Map picks is how everyone does it, I asked for it to be implemented for a long ass time and it finally made it in for playoffs / finals some seasons ago.

You can implement it for group stages by restricting the map pool each weeks, like leave a few tried and tested maps and add 1 or 2 "new maps".

Overall Ixian points are all good, games are definitely more interesting with picks.

Fixed spawns for tram only.
Bicsum
2710
Heidis Bergziegen
Posts
93
Location
EU
Joined
19 April 2012
9 March 2017 - 15:49 CET
#10
Maybe the poll should distinguish between actually fixed spawns and replaying the same spawn.
Mephilles
5803
Modder
ns2_docking2
Posts
303
Location
Germany
Joined
29 September 2013
9 March 2017 - 17:30 CET
#11
tbh I think the only maps that need fixed spawns are tram and descent
lebra
4566
CanMercForFinals.
Posts
123
Location
no., Iceland
Joined
17 January 2013
9 March 2017 - 19:46 CET
#12
spawns won't matter, you're still gonna lose.
Ixian
6200
Shoutcasters
tw.tv/thesingingskulk
Posts
110
Location
Denmark
Joined
17 March 2014
10 March 2017 - 00:16 CET
#13
lebra says
spawns won't matter, you're still gonna lose.


Which is kinda the point about fixed spawns - Both teams are forced to play the same game (tram north vs south spawn requires two almost opposite strategies). Much more competitive to lose against a team that had the same challenges as yourself.
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
lebra
4566
CanMercForFinals.
Posts
123
Location
no., Iceland
Joined
17 January 2013
10 March 2017 - 01:22 CET
#14
Ixian says
lebra says
spawns won't matter, you're still gonna lose.


Which is kinda the point about fixed spawns - Both teams are forced to play the same game (tram north vs south spawn requires two almost opposite strategies). Much more competitive to lose against a team that had the same challenges as yourself.

They can cheese it all they want for odds in their favor, they'll still lose against CanMercForFinals.
Ixian
6200
Shoutcasters
tw.tv/thesingingskulk
Posts
110
Location
Denmark
Joined
17 March 2014
10 March 2017 - 02:18 CET
#15
Can I quote you on that? xD
"It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, despite as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope" - J.R.R. Tolkien
BauerJankins
5841
seize & decyst
Referees
Referee
Posts
338
Location
Paderborn, Germany
Joined
20 October 2013
10 March 2017 - 02:36 CET
#16
lebra says
They can cheese it all they want for odds in their favor, they'll still lose against CanMercForFinals.

http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
lebra
4566
CanMercForFinals.
Posts
123
Location
no., Iceland
Joined
17 January 2013
10 March 2017 - 03:37 CET
#17
Ixian says
Can I quote you on that? xD

Look at the competition, these games will be pubs.
Mephilles
5803
Modder
ns2_docking2
Posts
303
Location
Germany
Joined
29 September 2013
10 March 2017 - 11:38 CET
#18
Well if the level of competition is too low for you, you always have the option to raise the level of competition by either improving the current players or bringing back the former prem div players that left :P
ryssk
Noavatar
Pell-Mell
Posts
303
Location
Sundsvall, Somalia
Joined
3 November 2012
10 March 2017 - 15:14 CET
#19
lebra says
Ixian says
Can I quote you on that? xD

Look at the competition, these games will be pubs.


Well considering you're on the line-up we've actually got a chance to beat you guys :)
Kmacg
Noavatar
Gnarcolepsy
Admins
EU Admin
Posts
51
Location
Great Britain (UK)
Joined
31 January 2014
10 March 2017 - 15:16 CET
#20
ryssk says
lebra says
Ixian says
Can I quote you on that? xD

Look at the competition, these games will be pubs.


Well considering you're on the line-up we actually got a chance to beat you guys :)


Not with Ypsi on your line-up bro
Ypsi
6039
Pell-Mell
Posts
9
Location
Finland
Joined
16 January 2014
11 March 2017 - 16:03 CET
#21
ChildrensPockets says
ryssk says
lebra says
Ixian says
Can I quote you on that? xD

Look at the competition, these games will be pubs.


Well considering you're on the line-up we actually got a chance to beat you guys :)


Not with Ypsi on your line-up bro


:( i thought forums were a safe space and you are invading my safe space.
Tyr
6015
seize & decyst
Admins
Gather Admin
Posts
71
Location
Sweden
Joined
8 January 2014
11 March 2017 - 16:17 CET
#22
Ypsi says
ChildrensPockets says
ryssk says
lebra says
Ixian says
Can I quote you on that? xD

Look at the competition, these games will be pubs.


Well considering you're on the line-up we actually got a chance to beat you guys :)


Not with Ypsi on your line-up bro


:(


:]
Nightsy
6452
Disqualified
Posts
91
Location
Munich, Buthan
Joined
18 September 2014
11 March 2017 - 17:44 CET
#23
Tyr says
Ypsi says
ChildrensPockets says
ryssk says
lebra says
Ixian says
Can I quote you on that? xD

Look at the competition, these games will be pubs.


Well considering you're on the line-up we actually got a chance to beat you guys :)


Not with Ypsi on your line-up bro


:(


:]


bm = hate speech
HE. WILL NOT. DEVIDE US.

Say no to hate speech in your local comp game forums!
ydy
2345
seize & decyst
Posts
26
Location
Somalia
Joined
18 November 2011
11 March 2017 - 22:19 CET
#24
Mega_noComm says
Fixed Spawns:
Pros: --more balanced--
Negatives: --less variety--
how bout for the season as a whole block out only the worst of the worst spawns and then for like semis and finals go fixed spawns
Golden
1212
CanMercForFinals.
Comp. Mod Council
Member
Posts
93
Location
United States
Joined
28 October 2006
11 March 2017 - 22:43 CET
#25
ydy says
Mega_noComm says
Fixed Spawns:
Pros: --more balanced--
Negatives: --less variety--
how bout for the season as a whole block out only the worst of the worst spawns and then for like semis and finals go fixed spawns


So basically remove rine Server spawn on tram and everything else is fine?
DCDarkling
5487
Tactical Retreat
Posts
70
Location
Netherlands
Joined
18 May 2013
14 March 2017 - 23:17 CET
#26
Not speaking for the team, as I did not bother to ask yet, but I am totally fine with having different spawns on the same map.
I mean, we all know what map we can play beforehand, adjust your strategies right?

Its just more fun, although could indeed be less balanced.


Same for maps.. lets just play as many comp ready maps as can be. Im bored of the forever tram-veil-summit.
There is no excuse to not know the map. PCW in it, train in it.. I dont care.
If knowing the maps are a issue, put the more custom ones later in season so all have more time to see it.
TR Discord:
https://discord.gg/qcBS9uf
Mega
1942
pubstars
Admins
League Admin
Posts
200
Location
Germany
Joined
28 September 2009
21 March 2017 - 05:50 CET
#27
So the Poll looks like Only Fixed Spawns
and the opinions on the posts here is the majority fixed spawns too.

We have Map picks in the Playoffs most likely anyway.



So i guess we go for Fixed Spawns only so far.


And i would say we force (listed after priority) :
1) Tram Alien Warehouse spawn then same Spawns again.
2) Summit AVOID ALIENS NORTH START then same Spawns again.
3) All other Maps Randomize Spawns and then just Repeat same Spawns.


Home
6925
Heidis Bergziegen
Gather Moderators
Classic Gather Moderator
Posts
113
Location
Germany
Joined
27 January 2016
21 March 2017 - 08:32 CET
#28
You can randomize by using a Workshop Version of the map.
Keats
7098
African Money Bees
Referees
Referee
Posts
40
Location
United States
Joined
23 May 2016
22 March 2017 - 17:18 CET
#29
Mega_noComm says
(its bad that we cant randomize between 2 spawnpoints we kinda have to set it)

It can probably be done programmatically but if not you can always just flip a coin or something
NotDragon
Noavatar
Extra-Staff
NSL Mod (Creator)
Posts
64
Location
Afghanistan
Joined
11 April 2012
22 March 2017 - 17:59 CET
#30
That already can be done via the NSL mod, and even individually by server admins.
New Reply