New Beta Mod - with principles

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#1
Principles of the new beta Comp Mod:
1. This is a minimalist Comp Mod regarding changes from Vanilla, we side on keeping it same as Vanilla.
2. Preferences will not be mistaken for actual OP things that ruin the game. No one's preferences should be more important than the game being fun for the community.
3. This will still be balanced for 6v6 or whatever comp player count is at the time.
4. Think of ways we can keep new things added by UWE in Comp Mod, even if altered for comp play.
5. Changes should only be made after discussion with the group that decides on changes to comp mod, and significant testing is needed before any season.
6. We can make big changes to the game when we think it's adding a new layer that UWE is interested in, and will work for the community as a whole. This way, Comp Mod is progressing NS2.
7. We want this Comp Mod to be about the future of NS2, and not focused on the past.
***Changelog for the beta mod: Click Here
**I will share the comp mod group shortly**
*List is updated from original post*

The new comp mod council will be smaller than the past. The goal is to have people that all share the same vision of what they want the game to be. There are so many variables in ns2, I don't think it's about achieving perfect balance. We do want the game to play well though, and we will make sure it does.

The vision this group shares is: We think transition from pub play to comp play is necessary to continue comp ns2. To make that transition enjoyable, we want comp mod to fit into that. We don't want a player to get good at the game, have to learn how to be a comp player, and learn a new game at the same time.

We need to make sure the comp mod works for gathers as well as a season. Gathers are the heart of comp ns2, if they go, it all feels empty. Even if you don't agree with every choice, or you wish we had some other version of comp mod... All that doesn't seem to matter if people aren't playing the game. If we make a game people like playing, then people can and will show up.

We want to embrace new changes to the game by UWE, and not quickly think how we can get rid of them. Which means thinking of ways comp can be more interesting with new things added. If we have to make slight changes we will, but try to keep new things in the game. Which goes back to the overall vision that preferences will not outweigh what works and what keeps the game closer to the same feel.

I think this new path is going to be better in the long run. It's time to stop going backwards, let's take what we have learned over the years, but keep an open mind.


infamous
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20 February 2018 - 20:55 CET
#2
Can hitboxes please be reverted? I understand that it makes it tougher for newer players, but for comp play it was a really nice change.
Keats
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#3

Deck says

3. This will still be balanced for 6v6 or whatever comp player count is at the time. Changes can be made.


Starcetereus
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#4

infamous says

Can hitboxes please be reverted? I understand that it makes it tougher for newer players, but for comp play it was a really nice change.




Reverting hitboxes is the absolute last change we want to make. They're here to stay get used to them.
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#5
The only real hitbox that needs change is the lerk tbh.
And please for the love of everything disable HP-Bars on players.

What is the reason behind removing silence? Except that some people dont like to play against?
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#6
Silence requires no skill to use, the only counter is looking behind you every 2 seconds, is incredibly easy to cheese, and unfun to play against. Ask any team we played about my jambi alien strat.
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21 February 2018 - 01:28 CET
#7
Silence is crazy when lerks can already glide, and skulks can sneak. You don't need it.

You shouldn't really be able to turn off the sounds in a fast paced fps game. You don't make people fast with no sound trade off. Imagine being able to take a silence drink in csgo before going around the corner. The point is you have to move slow to be silent..the way it should be. I wouldn't be surprised if certain UWE members agree.
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21 February 2018 - 01:33 CET
#8
Great if we remove everything that makes no fun. Then remove contamination and HP-Bars.
And how long has there been silence in the game and it never got removed by the comp mod.
Tbh the hitbox now are no fun and require so much less skill. If we go by that logic...

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21 February 2018 - 01:33 CET
#9

infamous says

Can hitboxes please be reverted? I understand that it makes it tougher for newer players, but for comp play it was a really nice change.




Of course people will disagree on this, but hitbox changes doesn't make sense if we are trying to appeal to people that are getting better at the game that don't have a ton of comp experience. Sure it might not be as competitive as you want, but I think it's more fun when people can hit what they are aiming at. The reg feels better, the game doesn't feel like it's screwing you as much. I think it just creates a better atmosphere for the average player.

If we go with the old hitboxes, it's an example of looking backwards, and I don't see it as a positive step.
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21 February 2018 - 01:37 CET
#10

mortmann says

Great if we remove everything that makes no fun. Then remove contamination and HP-Bars.
And how long has there been silence in the game and it never got removed by the comp mod.
Tbh the hitbox now are no fun and require so much less skill. If we go by that logic...






I've had conversations with people that think silence should be removed in standard ns2, not just random pub players either. I think it's something people know should happen, it's just about actually removing something that has been around so long. Hard to do, but we can.
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21 February 2018 - 01:51 CET
#11
Fine remove silence, but then remove fucking contamination and dont say its "balanced".
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#12

mortmann says

Fine remove silence, but then remove fucking contamination and dont say its "balanced".




You could, but contamination is just there so you don't have really painful ends to games. Either way, not sure why people get upset about it.
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21 February 2018 - 02:54 CET
#13
why big fade hitbox
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#14

Sardine says

why big fade hitbox




because we never tried new fade hitbox with the current vanilla sg spread. We also want to give players time to adjust and see if it works. It seemed like fades were really strong when they had old hitboxes and vanilla sg spread...and they seemed really weak with old hitboxes and small sg spread.

Plus we think that vanilla hitboxes have a chance to play at a faster pace/people are hitting more/ hopefully having more fun. Lifeforms may die more, but the pres rate is increased so you have more options if that does happen.
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21 February 2018 - 05:55 CET
#15

mortmann says

Fine remove silence, but then remove fucking contamination and dont say its "balanced".



if you let aliens get to 10 biomass you deserve to lose.
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Mephilles
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21 February 2018 - 12:56 CET
#16
I think silence should be removed because it is an upgrade that removes one of the senses from the marines, which takes control away from the marine player. That is something should be avoided as much as possible in this game.

Stomp breaks the same rule but since it is a biomass 8 ability you'll see it less often and atleast in pubs it is used to break 2 hive stalemates vs a marine team that can't kill hives. (Also you have atleast the possibility to avoid stomp)

Contamination is just a game ender to help alien teams to end the game more quickly. If that happens because lack of skill on alien side or marines turtling is a different question though.

Lerks definately have a harder time killing with bites with the new hitbox. Also the heavy weight on the strafing as lerk makes the movement feel weird but in my book it is just a thing to adapt to. Maybe lerks will have a much more passive/supportive role in future. It is up to the teams to adapt their strats and see how imbalanced it is afterwards.

Funnily enough despite bigger hotboxes the beta feels a bit alien sided atm.
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21 February 2018 - 13:41 CET
#17

Starcetereus says


mortmann says

Fine remove silence, but then remove fucking contamination and dont say its "balanced".



if you let aliens get to 10 biomass you deserve to lose.




If you cant win without contamination you deserve to lose.
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21 February 2018 - 22:36 CET
#18
New comp mod change: JPs now cost 25 res.
With the faster res flow from vanilla, this cost increase is mathematically the exact same (33% increase in time to get JP res) as the cost increase JPs had in seasons 10 and 11 with the old res flow (15 res -> 20 res).

Upcoming planned features:
-Medpack buff:
The instant heal of meds will scale exponentially based on armor level. At a0 meds will heal 20 instantly and 30 over time, a1 = 25 instantly/25 over time, a2 = 35/15, a3 = 50/0. Heal over time meds are underpowered in the late game and instant heal meds are overpowered in the early game, this change will resolve both issues while also making A3 useful for the first time in natural selection history.

-Third shade hive ability, Neurotoxin:
Adds a low damage and low duration, but stacking, damage over time effect to bites/swipes/spits. The DoT from lerk's poison bite stacks with this. It's designed to be effective in the hands of skilled players that can land consecutive bites, and help to counter strong meds in the late game as the idea behind it is to stack DoTs to reduce the effectiveness of medspam. Neurotoxin will give shade hive some extra power when it comes to winning group fights, especially in the early and late game. The DoT dps scales based on attack speed, and because of this is most effective on gorges (especially) and fades. This ability will need lots of testing to balance as it is straight up a dps increase, bear with us and keep an open mind.


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Mephilles
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22 February 2018 - 09:21 CET
#19
While I am not against those changes I just want to point out to be careful with adding new abilities to the compmod. I think tweaking the existing things to work is better to stay closer to vanilla. And while Neurotoxin could be considered as a tweak to focus, the fact that it has a new name (new icon?) and works completely different is a small step to alienating the pub community again.
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22 February 2018 - 13:32 CET
#20

Starcetereus says


-Third shade hive ability, Neurotoxin:
Adds a low damage and low duration, but stacking, damage over time effect to bites/swipes/spits. The DoT from lerk's poison bite stacks with this. It's designed to be effective in the hands of skilled players that can land consecutive bites, and help to counter strong meds in the late game as the idea behind it is to stack DoTs to reduce the effectiveness of medspam. Neurotoxin will give shade hive some extra power when it comes to winning group fights, especially in the early and late game. The DoT dps scales based on attack speed, and because of this is most effective on gorges (especially) and fades. This ability will need lots of testing to balance as it is straight up a dps increase, bear with us and keep an open mind.





So much for principles.
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#21
Can't really go in full detail, but there is a very good reason we are trying new stuff, and it doesn't really violate the principles.
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#22

Mephilles says

small step



http://i.imgur.com/hr1ud2u.png
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#23

Hobbeson says


So much for principles.





GOTEM
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#24
drain the swamp
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#25
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#26
It's OK, we can just change the principles. That's the beauty of this..but seriously...I think this new principle makes sense hopefully to you:

We can make big changes to the game when we think it's adding a new layer to the game that UWE is interested in and could work for the community as a whole. This way, Comp Mod is progressing the game in an exciting way.
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#27

Starcetereus says


-Medpack buff:
The instant heal of meds will scale exponentially based on armor level. At a0 meds will heal 20 instantly and 30 over time, a1 = 25 instantly/25 over time, a2 = 35/15, a3 = 50/0. Heal over time meds are underpowered in the late game and instant heal meds are overpowered in the early game, this change will resolve both issues while also making A3 useful for the first time in natural selection history.






This change is now live
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Keats
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23 February 2018 - 06:30 CET
#28

Starcetereus says

Can't really go in full detail, but there is a very good reason we are trying new stuff, and it doesn't really violate the principles.




star's angling for that squad five, helping uwe with balance to reach 1million concurrent players ;)

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23 February 2018 - 07:01 CET
#29
delet this
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#30
lol to think that I actually got excited after reading the first post but then scrolled down... funny that you mentioned vanilla and then in the end all the posts are about how to improve it.

Are these changes to the current comp mod or are you having a separate one? Now it seems like this just turned into another thread with new changes to the current mod. So I don't really understand how this is implemented in practice?

I think you will have a hard time getting new players to play competitive with the current unbalance between marines and aliens. I know very well the argument "div3 marines suck, they should learn how to play the game", and understand that it's not a problem with div1 and 2. But in the end if you actually want NEW players something should be done about it. It's also very unentertaining to watch. There should probably be a separate compmod for div3, so the current div1 and div2 players would be happy and keep their own comp mod and their own community.

Although, I guess something like that would have been implemented already a long time ago if NSL had honest interest to invite new players. Or maybe it was not a problem before, people just in general got so much better in the competitive games that during the evolution of the comp mod it was adjusted to fulfill their needs? I'm not really clear about the history, if has this always been a problem.

I guess you would have to have completely separate gather page for a lower skill level mod as well or somehow distinguish it from the current comp mod, to keep the current competitive players happy. Also, for that div3 comp mod you cannot predict how it would play out before you have the players with that skill level actually play it several games. In that sense all your arguments are invalid if you are a div1 or 2 player and your suggestions/reasoning are based in your current experiences in gathers and competitive games. The div3 players could then just move on to your higher divisions if they have interest/skill to do that eventually. But these changes would require someone to be willing to seriously launch it and carry it through.

So just putting my 2 cents in here, and you either act on it or you don't. The point is, keep everything old that make the current people happy, then add a NEW layer (new comp mod with its own "low skill" community) for the new players.

Honestly, I don't think we all fit to the same community, I've been reading these forums for the past few years and I personally don't see it happening. You have a completely different mindset when you only play gathers/competitive games versus people who only play pub. But the new players come from the pub and they might want to take it to a more competitive level, that's the truth. To be honest, this community is not very inviting as it is, the forums should be properly moderated at least.
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