Continued thread from the UWE forums:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/136087/allowing-removed-view-models/p1

I have three questions to people here on this site.
1) Do you know about the fact that you are allowed to remove your viewmodels(teeth and guns)? And have the information(ammo counter/"YOU ARE BEING SCANNED" icon) placed on the screen. All for the effect that the viewmodels does not block from about 10-15% up to about 75%(when you bite as skulk) of your vision of the actual gameworld? It is not in the rules and I can't find any information about it on this site.
2) If you already know you were allowed to remove the viewmodels in the league, where did you find out about this?
3) Do you think it is okay to allow such an advantage of getting up to 75% more vision(compared to playing with viewmodels on) at the moment you attack?

I don't really care about your crusade but just going to get this straight.

Swalk:
"I would say far from it, the top level in NS2 was never like that, although the top players have been really good at the game and able to wreck anyone below their level. I played there in the beginning with duplex, which I created with a friend of mine and we overall got decent results at the top and even got to finals against Archaea in several contests, with various iterations of duplex. Fun fact, although we never came close to beating them in officials, we beat them in a pcw shortly before they went to Cologne for the first time against exertus, that was a bit of a sour win. But I think it was a wake-up call for them, they did much better at the event and really stepped up their game onwards."

I really much doubt that you won us in PCW, because I didn't lose single game while playing in archaea and at that time I played almost our every PCW. So most like you are spreading lies and I don't like that.

....really Swalk? I think this topic has been discussed at length now.

Shut it down.

@Tane: Swalk is right actually. Duplex beat us 3-1 after we goofballed a marine round and lost two alien rounds to their (at the time) new sg/mine rush cheese strat. It was pretty funny, because I don't think we ever lost any alien rounds against duplex except for the week or so when they used that strat, before we figured out how to counter it. I also remember losing 1-3 against Godar once, but the details are hazy (I think we had a merc).

I think we lost once or twice against Exertus just after I joined up, but that was before you even started playing. Of course there was also the two first officials against Nexzil, but those were hardly fair...

Oh, in that case I apologize you Swalk. Please, do continue your crusade against evil.

WAIT A MINUTE.

What about HBZs alien cc rush on Veil in season 2, that only failed because of Fanas beacon cheatz, letting him rebuild sub cc??? You may have won it , but I'm sure you felt really dirty afterwards. #neverforget

1) do know
2) ns2+ options after update
3) I don't really mind, since everybody is free to use it. I don't use it however.

Fana says

@Tane: Swalk is right actually. Duplex beat us 3-1 after we goofballed a marine round and lost two alien rounds to their (at the time) new sg/mine rush cheese strat. It was pretty funny, because I don't think we ever lost any alien rounds against duplex except for the week or so when they used that strat, before we figured out how to counter it. I also remember losing 1-3 against Godar once, but the details are hazy (I think we had a merc).

I think we lost once or twice against Exertus just after I joined up, but that was before you even started playing. Of course there was also the two first officials against Nexzil, but those were hardly fair...

As far as I remember, one of the rounds we simply capped our naturals, got mines and then with 6 marines(commander included) rushed from flight to sub on summit(back when it was close spawns, so it was really fast and (ch)easy to do), shooting the hive from the entrance :P Also, I don't think Tane was playing this match and he was in my opinion a key player for Archaea.

Anyway, that is pretty much off-topic. Evil must be put back into the pits of hell and good must prevail for the sake of fair play.

@Obraxis How can advantageous mods that lie in the same grouping of mods as pink skulks and whitewalls(all named mods gives better vision with no downsides), lack of information and clear contradictions about the modification in the rules have been discussed enough, if we still haven't seen any changes? There have been no public discussion about including this into the league and from my knowledge(told by herakles in the other thread) it was singlehandedly decided by Zefram/Titus and 2eZ. This thread is the only information there is about viewmodels on this site.

swalk says

from my knowledge(told by herakles in the other thread) it was singlehandedly decided by Zefram/Titus and 2eZ.

Not true, a lot of people in the comp community had input into the decision for viewmodels to be put into NS2+ and allowed by the NSL and AusNS2 league. A lot of people like to rag on the whole Titusmod thing, but the fact is that NS2 does not revolve around the NSL and Titus. There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes that took place so that both the leagues can collaborate about rules and mod changes etc. Right now, I can see about 30 people, not 6, that have access to the balance chat, as well as there being many public opportunities for people to discuss viewmodels, including in the NS2+ thread. The reason there was no announcement post at least for AusNS2, I believe Zefram might share the same view whether or not he comments, is because we concluded that viewmodels don't change the core fundamentals enough to warrant any rule changes and/or significant notification. The rules for both leagues have viewmodel changes using approved mods covered. Most people who play in these leagues follow what Mendasp is doing with NS2+ and it is an integral part of our leagues, which because its a 3rd party mod, means its the players responsibility to make themselves aware of any changes that occur.

Seb says

swalk says

from my knowledge(told by herakles in the other thread) it was singlehandedly decided by Zefram/Titus and 2eZ.

Not true, a lot of people in the comp community had input into the decision for viewmodels to be put into NS2+ and allowed by the NSL and AusNS2 league. A lot of people like to rag on the whole Titusmod thing, but the fact is that NS2 does not revolve around the NSL and Titus. There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes that took place so that both the leagues can collaborate about rules and mod changes etc. Right now, I can see about 30 people, not 6, that have access to the balance chat, as well as there being many public opportunities for people to discuss viewmodels, including in the NS2+ thread. The reason there was no announcement post at least for AusNS2, I believe Zefram might share the same view whether or not he comments, is because we concluded that viewmodels don't change the core fundamentals enough to warrant any rule changes and/or significant notification. The rules for both leagues have viewmodel changes using approved mods covered. Most people who play in these leagues follow what Mendasp is doing with NS2+ and it is an integral part of our leagues, which because its a 3rd party mod, means its the players responsibility to make themselves aware of any changes that occur.

- 30 people is still a clear minority of this community, doesn't really make much difference from about 15-20 people(which I thought, don't know why you pull the number 6 out of your ass) when set in contrast to the total player pool of this community.
- Most, if not all actually, arguments that removing viewmodels have downsides from these people are nothing else but false. I suspect that it might be because these things were not implemented when first tried out: You can enable ammo counter, scan icon(letting you know you are scanned) etc. in the NS2+ options. And all the talk about "bite timing" is just a matter of getting used to not having the viewmodels there anymore. The bite sound and your sense of time is all the que you need for this. No serious player sit and focus on their viewmodels, focus is on the target, which are the marines. The only difference between playing with a viewmodel and without is the fact that the viewmodel blocks up to 75%(when you bite) of your view of the gameworld. Nothing but a pure advantage to remove them, once you get used to it. All the supposed "missing information" is placed elsewhere on the screen, it just doesn't block your vision anymore(after removing viewmodels).
- viewmodels are models(ALL model changes are banned except for the exceptions in the rules, as stated in the rules) - it is a clear contradiction in the rules, if you have eyeballs and is able to read.
- A thread on ANOTHER WEBISTE is NOT a public discussion for this league. ONLY A MINORITY OF THE PLAYERS HERE EVEN BOTHER GOING TO THE UWE WEBSITE(not to mention how few goes to the modding forum section), NOT "MOST PEOPLE" AS YOU FALSELY CLAIM. The majority of the players in the league watch this website(because they keep an eye on contests) on the other hand.

I didn't tell that, i told you allready to not lie using my nickname.
What you don't say is that I explained it was tested for nearly a full year, but I won't reiterate everything from the UWE forums.

Dwindling of a community doesn't mean loss of skill.
Quakeworld/QL/SC players of today would rape any old school players when the playerbase were much bigger.

Early Arc dominance was like NiP in early CS:GO by Ray and Eagleye's own word "it was like we were the only premier team and others were div1".

Arc was awesome i agree and they might have been in NS2WC finals, but comparing any other team from then with Titus Sauna Snails NS2WC is hilarious. Snails would shit on duplex any day.

To end this post no one cares if view models are on or off it's just preference the pathetic agenda you are trying to defend makes everyone laugh in the comp scene.

You are a joke.

WHY CANT WE ALL JUST FREKING GET SOME COOKIES AND SOME MILK?! And get together and eat it? FUCK IT! IM drunk! And im out of this! Quake Mod is the best feature sofar in this game!

Jesus Christ Swalk, talk about autism.

So even if you win the argument people can now see what a stupid and ridiculous human being you are. So fucking petty and with very little self awareness as to how you are perceived.

What the fuck are you trying to accomplish other than attempt to shame Zefram for a decision no one gives a shit about?

Festive cheers etc.....

Happy new year to everyone!

You are being a bit harsh here guys... The way you're insulting swalk is becoming much more rediculous than the reason you are doing it for

Scatter says

Jesus Christ Swalk, talk about autism.

So even if you win the argument people can now see what a stupid and ridiculous human being you are. So fucking petty and with very little self awareness as to how you are perceived.

What the fuck are you trying to accomplish other than attempt to shame Zefram for a decision no one gives a shit about?

Festive cheers etc.....

What the fuck has autism and stupidity to do with caring about fair play and a levelled playing field? That is some very bright and intelligent arguments you have there dude.

Let me tell you EXACTLY what I am trying to accomplish here:
1) Getting viewmodel mods officially banned in the league again(it was banned for good reasons).
2) Getting rid of clear contradictions in the rules in regards to the mod.

The truth is I don't give a fuck how people percieve me, especially if they don't really know me at all. I was always a strong advocate for fair play and strict ruling and I have always been vocal about it if I saw something that went against that. That is not some imaginary agenda against Zefram, I recommended the dude to replace me, back when it seemed like he actually gave a damn.

And herakles, nice insults for the sake of keeping your precious "legal cheats", we all know how much you like cheats. And yes, the teams from the NS2WC were all better than any interations of duplex, so were Archaea. But the point was that even somewhat average players as me, have always played and still do play in the top division. Don't fool yourself into thinking the top skill level in this game is anywhere near the top skill in other bigger competetive games. The current top players barely play the game anymore.

1. Yes
2. NS2+
3. Yes
4. Who cares, it's available to everyone. It makes a negligible difference and is more up to preference than anything else.

The countless times ive died as a skulk because herakles hides behind one of my teeth, not anymore! thanks CDT

Ellaborate on your "good reasons" to ban no viewmodels in the past, please.

1) Yes, and I'd rather have it show on my teeth or on my weapon instead of the corner of the screen.
2) The moment it came out.
3) There are good sides and bad sides to this decision, and it's up to the player at hand to decide whether or not he/she wants them on or off.

"Don't fool yourself into thinking the top skill level in this game is anywhere near the top skill in other bigger competetive games." But you know, if the skill level in lets say Quake is a lot higher than in Natural Selection, then the small changes to viewmodels, graphics settings and enemy models to the initial are even more impactful then in the latter, so you basically contradicted yourself?

If 2 equal skill players were playing duel in quake, and 1 of them was playing with default settings while the other was playing with highly customised TO HIS LIKING, (that's the key phrase) then obviously the following will win. (unless the first mentioned wants to use default settings and is good with them).

If I play anybody from my skill level and i was using high graphics and 30 fps, while my opponent was using low and getting over 150, then which one of us would win? It's far stretched but it all comes down to exactly the point you're trying to make. It does give an unfair advantage and if you want a fair gameplay where everyone is handicapped equally go play on consoles, seriously.
But wait, the screen size is unfair.
This argument is stupid.

Comparing players from different games to find out who is the best is a retarded way.

2eZ. as a team had nothing to do with the changes, so go play "drama" somewhere else.

The rules state that no player can have an unfair advantage over another player.

To understand how one can get an advantage, we must understand how an advantage is made. Games are based on.

Mechanics
Theory (how do I intend to use these mechanics)
Skill (The use of theory)
=
Result

The adjustment to the cyst is a good example of this structure works. Cyst maturity time changed (mechanic), I was very sad, because that meant that the result of cysting into the 'rine base was no longer viable. The skill was therefore useless, as other theories was easy to deem more viable.

Therefore: If the mechanics change sufficiently, the skill and theory is useless - you begin playing ns2 combat, and you will notice mechanic changes, which in turn will change the metagame. You will notice that one cannot play fade f.ex, due to changes in mechanics.
A game of chess has simple mechanics, a HUGE theory, and a non-existing skill (I dont know anyone not able to move a brick - and people with paralysis from the neck down, are able to play CoD due to special inputdevices). Alle games are composed of these catergories differently, and comparing them would be retarded as stated earlier.

An exploit, an unfair advantage, is an unintended use of mechanics. Go watch CS:GO Fnatic vs LDLC on overpass if you wanna see what happens when the mechanics change/are exploited and how the whole game shifts.

Does the ability to remove the viewmodel change the mechanics? No, it is a part of the mechanics. Should ENSL allow it? That is up to the admins - fit a formal complaint instead of this - they will handle it appropriately.

/1 dont care /2 dont care 3/dont care

Spring says

Ellaborate on your "good reasons" to ban no viewmodels in the past, please.

I've done that extensively in the other thread and I can do it for you personally also.
- Viewmodels practicly block from about 15% up to about 75%(while biting, the moments in which you try to connect your bites are among the MOST crucial on aliens) of your view of the actual gameworld. Removing them gives you a much better view of the gameworld, effectively making it easier for you to track opponents in melee combat, as you bite alot in melee combat and your view would normally be hindred alot with viewmodels on.

There is no such thing as a downside to removing the viewmodels. It is a pure advantage, just like whitewalls and pink skulks(all three mods makes it easier for you to track your opponents).

Spring says

1) Yes, and I'd rather have it show on my teeth or on my weapon instead of the corner of the screen.
2) The moment it came out.
3) There are good sides and bad sides to this decision, and it's up to the player at hand to decide whether or not he/she wants them on or off.

"Don't fool yourself into thinking the top skill level in this game is anywhere near the top skill in other bigger competetive games." But you know, if the skill level in lets say Quake is a lot higher than in Natural Selection, then the small changes to viewmodels, graphics settings and enemy models to the initial are even more impactful then in the latter, so you basically contradicted yourself?

Did you know that you can have the HP and ammo counter/adrenaline RIGHT NEXT to the crosshair(ie. not in the corner of the screen) on their respective sides of the crosshair. Enable HL2-style information in the NS2+ settings to try this for yourself.

And no, if you understood the argument you would know that to be wrong.
I argue that the effect of removing viewmodels will be most apparent on players that are not able to keep 100% track of marines movements(marines sometimes jump out of your "gameworld view"(that is what I call the part of the screen not being visually obscured by the teeth) when in combat). Mendasp has confirmed that even happens to him in prem div in the other thread. It also happens to me from time to time with viewmodels on. On the other hand, I haven't yet lost track of a marine since I removed the viewmodels.
Spring says

If 2 equal skill players were playing duel in quake, and 1 of them was playing with default settings while the other was playing with highly customised TO HIS LIKING, (that's the key phrase) then obviously the following will win. (unless the first mentioned wants to use default settings and is good with them).

If I play anybody from my skill level and i was using high graphics and 30 fps, while my opponent was using low and getting over 150, then which one of us would win? It's far stretched but it all comes down to exactly the point you're trying to make. It does give an unfair advantage and if you want a fair gameplay where everyone is handicapped equally go play on consoles, seriously.
But wait, the screen size is unfair.
This argument is stupid.

Viewmodels does not have anything, whatsoever, to do with monitor size or fps. I never argued that those things should be restricted, that would be outright stupid for any PC game. I am for modding as long as it does not give a direct advantage(also known as a cheat, modifying the game to get an advantage), so consoles don't really fit my needs. But there is a MASSIVE difference between upgrading hardware specs and actually modifying the game.

Also, using quake, or any other of the major competetive FPS games for that matter, is pretty dumb and ignorant. I bet that stupidity was imprinted on your brain by herakles. Don't compare things that don't really compare to eachother. It is like comparing a tractor and a race car.

The fact is that NONE of those games have viewmodels that block ANYWHERE NEAR the amount that is blocked in NS2 and therefore does not have much effect on those games, but it does in NS2. Especially if your aim and tracking is not top-notch. Removing viewmodels takes away emphasys of the skill of aim and tracking, hence why this should not have been allowed. It degrades the league by imposing unneeded advantages.

When a marine would normally be out of your vision when jumping over you, you can now still see him and his EXACT movements, because the viewmodels does not block your view of the gameworld anymore. The most crucial moments as aliens are the ones where you try to connect your bites and kill the marines. With decent aim and tracking you can overcome the visual obscurity of the viewmodels, but it takes a decent amount of skill to do it reliably.

This thread is a joke :D

Trademark says

This thread is a joke :D

It is really not and I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to believe that. Removing the viewmodels is an advantage, just like whitewalls and pink skulks are. It is a serious attack on fair play and the levelled playing field to allow such a thing.

Do you think it would it be okay if the admins allowed whitewalls and pink skulks, just because they decided so internally? No, I don't think so either. Editing the viewmodels is exactly the same as editing any other model.

I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to compare viewmodel alterations to pink skulks.

See!!! I can be passive aggressive too!

swalk says

Trademark says

This thread is a joke :D

It is really not and I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to believe that. Removing the viewmodels is an advantage, just like whitewalls and pink skulks are. It is a serious attack on fair play and the levelled playing field to allow such a thing.

Do you think it would it be okay if the admins allowed whitewalls and pink skulks, just because they decided so internally? No, I don't think so either. Editing the viewmodels is exactly the same as editing any other model.

hmmm then turn them off yourself or dont who gives a fuck?

Trademark says

swalk says

Trademark says

This thread is a joke :D

It is really not and I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to believe that. Removing the viewmodels is an advantage, just like whitewalls and pink skulks are. It is a serious attack on fair play and the levelled playing field to allow such a thing.

Do you think it would it be okay if the admins allowed whitewalls and pink skulks, just because they decided so internally? No, I don't think so either. Editing the viewmodels is exactly the same as editing any other model.

hmmm then turn them off yourself or dont who gives a fuck?

I already turned them off because I don't want to be playing with more disadvantage than my system specs(which is natural for PC gaming). But it just doesn't feel like it should be allowed at all. I give a fuck about fair play and so should the admins, even if a majority of the community doesn't. The current situation is doing no good(pleasing players that don't give a fuck about fair play with mods that give them advantages, is not a good thing). It is degrading to the league to remove emphasys on the skills of aiming and tracking and allow advantages such as this.

I just tried playing with viewmodels off for a couple of days and honestly have to say it didn't make much difference at all in aiming if anything it made it worse, I dread to think about playing a round without being able to see what you are shooting / attacking with.

The general consensus from the community is that the difference is negligible, there are countless other ways of improving your chances against your opponent (High end hardware, lower latency etc etc) and this just isn't one of em.

Which is why the community don't seem all too fussed whether the option was available or not because it truly does not make a difference and possibly why you been getting the responses you have.

We can't all be possibly wrong? Please stop blowing hot air into this lead balloon as this cause just isn't worth the one man crusade.

Putting blu tack in the center of your monitor would of been a more justified cause to crusade against.

swalk says

Trademark says

swalk says

Trademark says

This thread is a joke :D

It is really not and I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to believe that. Removing the viewmodels is an advantage, just like whitewalls and pink skulks are. It is a serious attack on fair play and the levelled playing field to allow such a thing.

Do you think it would it be okay if the admins allowed whitewalls and pink skulks, just because they decided so internally? No, I don't think so either. Editing the viewmodels is exactly the same as editing any other model.

hmmm then turn them off yourself or dont who gives a fuck?

I already turned them off because I don't want to be playing with more disadvantage than my system specs(which is natural for PC gaming). But it just doesn't feel like it should be allowed at all. I give a fuck about fair play and so should the admins, even if a majority of the community doesn't. The current situation is doing no good(pleasing players that don't give a fuck about fair play with mods that give them advantages, is not a good thing). It is degrading to the league to remove emphasys on the skills of aiming and tracking and allow advantages such as this.

So your using now and your whole thread is about not using them LOL. look at some of the best players in this game 80% of those people have them on on both sides and do you see it hindering them in anyway?

Trademark says

swalk says

Trademark says

swalk says

Trademark says

This thread is a joke :D

It is really not and I feel sorry for anyone stupid enough to believe that. Removing the viewmodels is an advantage, just like whitewalls and pink skulks are. It is a serious attack on fair play and the levelled playing field to allow such a thing.

Do you think it would it be okay if the admins allowed whitewalls and pink skulks, just because they decided so internally? No, I don't think so either. Editing the viewmodels is exactly the same as editing any other model.

hmmm then turn them off yourself or dont who gives a fuck?

I already turned them off because I don't want to be playing with more disadvantage than my system specs(which is natural for PC gaming). But it just doesn't feel like it should be allowed at all. I give a fuck about fair play and so should the admins, even if a majority of the community doesn't. The current situation is doing no good(pleasing players that don't give a fuck about fair play with mods that give them advantages, is not a good thing). It is degrading to the league to remove emphasys on the skills of aiming and tracking and allow advantages such as this.

So your using now and your whole thread is about not using them LOL. look at some of the best players in this game 80% of those people have them on on both sides and do you see it hindering them in anyway?

Yes, of course I don't want to be playing at a disadvantage. But I also don't like to play with an advantage over others, but the rule change(oh wait, the rules were actually not changed?) kind of forced me to do it because I don't want to be at a disadvantage and I want it revoked so I am not stuck in this situation.

Of course you won't see much difference on people that are already able to reliably track their targets with the viewmodels on. Hence, all the "It doesn't matter, I am the best, I know best and there is no difference for me."

You need to look at the players that have trouble tracking targets reliably with the viewmodels on. Players that have marines jumping out of their normal view with the viewmodels on(and the irony: Mendasp confirmed this also happens to him), they will have a much easier time tracking their targets with viewmodels off because much more of the gameworld is visible, specificly when you need vision the MOST; when you are biting the marines and your screen would be normally be up to 75% obscured by the bite animation. Also, it gives you a much clearer screen and more information is available at ALL times(but most important; at the most crucial moments when you bite), that is an advantage at any level of play. Not sure why people don't recognize that, seems like they don't care for having a playing field that is as levelled as possible.

The mod serves the same purpose as pink skulks and whitewalls. Making your targets clearer and therefore easier to keep track of. It is not in any way similar to other hud changes that are allowed and generally accepted.

swalk says

Players that have marines jumping out of their normal view with the viewmodels on(and the irony: Mendasp confirmed this also happens to him), they will have a much easier time tracking their targets with viewmodels off because much more of the gameworld is visible, specificly when you need vision the MOST; when you are biting the marines and your screen would be normally be up to 75% obscured by the bite animation.

I never said that, learn to read. You keep lying on purpose, or maybe you are actually stupid enough that you can't read.

Here's exactly what I posted:

Mendasp says

For the most part, you should still "lose track" of a marine while biting, viewmodels or not, people lose track of their target because you are so close to it that any good dodge will make him be outside of your FOV... And anyone that has played NS2 will know this. Unless you want to lie to yourself, the reason you miss bites is not the viewmodel.

Please, stop spreading bullshit. Thanks.

By the way I play(ed) with the models on.

You made this thread hoping to get support from people here (since you got nothing on the UWE forums), and it seems noone actually gives a shit! Congratulations!

You know Swalk, eventually there comes a time when you have to stop accusing everyone else of having absurd ideas and consider yourself. When not a single person who has weighed in agrees with you, maybe it's not them that's wrong...

A for effort though!