We would have to tell our players that anytime they want to switch from ENSL to public play, they'd have to update their game files. This could take significant amounts of time.
We'd also have to decide - do gathers play of vanilla, or on our comp branch?
We'd also have to make modders in our community maintain a specific version of their mods that work on BOTH vanilla and our comp branch. Which is exactly what they DON'T want to do. That, or we stop using other mods and ONLY use comp-mod and NSL-mod.
I'd also have to coordinate all the server operators to use the BRANCh version of servers.
Then we'd have to coordinate 150 players or more to switch branches. On game days, they might be on vanilla because they wanted to pub play. This would be fun to deal with on match days when players can't figure out why they can't play certain servers.
In a nutshell, the logistics behind such a move are a nightmare for us.
I have already discussed yesterday with some of the PDT devs about this. They agreed that it's not an ideal solution. They did it out of good faith, and I told them we appreciate it, but there's no realistic chance that we can make it work since we're all volunteers.
@Simba
How about copying the NS2 folder to another location before changing to beta version?
Im doing this since ages cause my main steam folder is on an normal HDD but i want to play NS2 from my SSD.
So you do this exact one time and then you can switch from comp -> vanilla and back whenever you want.
Or you copy the beta build, this would take atelast a bit more time once but after that the comp NS2 version would never change or only when needed with enough time for preparation.
This would be the best solution cause the comp-mod is reverting past changes anyway.
Put this version into a share so everyone can download it from there if needed.
I dont see a real problem here.
So the devs making a special version as an workaround but the comp scene refuse to use it?
2 clicks and about 5 min waiting for the copy process is not manageable?
5 min once per week is a significant amount of time?
If you use the the process i mentioned above YOU can dictate the time when a new version is coming to compscene.
This would gave modders the time they need and official patches wont break the game suddenly.
So instead of bitching around use these simple workarounds.
Dont tell me the comp scene is so braindead.
As a old server op I dont see the issue. There not THAT many nsl ops around. If it runs the branch, it runs. No server op will swap the branches nonstop. If they need a non comp branch server, they will just duplicate the server and shove it in the other branch.
The server problem you describe doesnt exist.
As for players swapping branch, I can only talk what id think of it. It takes me what, 5 min to swap branches? I dont see the issue.
it takes less than 5 minutes to swap to a beta branch of NS2... its 1 right click and 5 left clicks... literally...
If people can't be bothered to do that but insist on making a huge fuss over mods going down etc, I have no sympathy... its not difficult, its not time consuming and it solves everyones problems.
So you have problems with investing a few minutes to change the version of NS2 or just copy an already installed one so you can switch to "pub-mode" whenever you want but you have no problems that one person invest way more time to please a horde childish egomaniacs?
Also this new comp-player argument.
Where should they come from?
From your so loved wooza server?
But its always easier to point a finger at someone else, right?
Its not the Devs fault that you played NS2 too much and cant enjoy it anymore.
I made a break of 6 month, came back for 2 weeks, another break of 2 month and now im playing again a bit.
This is something i recommend for everyone, you become a different view on things. Believe me.
You are correct, its not an ideal situation to be in... but at the moment, it IS the easiest and best that we have, and the PDT put time into making it possible so that the issues being caused by their frequent updates don't cause more and more knock-on effects to the competitive scene... or do you really want to go through the mod issues that we just went through every week for the next 2 months?.. just because you can't be fucking bothered to click 6 times...
If you can come up with and execute a better solution, i'm sure we would all appreciate it... and hey, you can look forward to the lovely feedback that people like Dragon receive for all your hard work too... wouldn't that be lovely?
i remember some games ns2 included that have a choice box on startup
(back in the days it was the choice between the launch pad and start ns2)
looks like that:
Can we not have the same for NS2 comp and ns2 pub instead of a different branch ?
Or a starting parameter for "ns2.exe -comp" or something.
Like this the Patch size increases True but its a 1 time download then
instead switching Branches are multiple downloads.
(its better for people with slow internet/volume based internet or no ssd or idk)
leave alone the time you have to take to allways switch back and forth
(quick bugfixes and changes in the ns2 comp servers could also be provided with a mod like the uwe hotfix mod in case something goes wrong.
in that case its ns2compfix mod.)
I never said I would refuse to do it if it came down to it, I'm just pointing out to you two dumbfucks that it's not exactly a better solution to what we have right now.
And yea depara, fuck trying to get new people to play comp, not like it needs it anyways right? Honestly, you post such garbage it's sometime hard to tell if you're simply retarded or actually believe in the crap you're spewing, it's hilarious.
And yes, let's talk about the balance changes the devs are breaking comp mod for. Electrified rts and health bars, both things that were never asked for and completely fuck with the current balance of the game.
Sorry if I don't enjoy the comp scene being ruined over the STUPIDEST changes that these devs can think of based on their "internal playtesting". So many people have been asking to remove cysts and the static spawns, but no, the PDT adds electrified rts instead, fucking hilarious.
At the very least if the changes were good for the game's gameplay they could justify its effect on the comp community, but these changes are plain retarded, and that's all on the PDT and no one else.
Check the trello board you moron, you'll see that the examples you gave of things they should be working on are already up there.
As for the internal playtesting, if you actually knew anything about it, you'd know your comment is retarded... due to rapid iteration and a low amount of players wanting to take part, playtesters now just find and report bugs... the "balance" side is theory crafted, and then thrown into the game, then tweaked based off of feedback... sure playtesters offer up their thoughts on how a change may impact balance, and you'd be surprised to see how much does get changed based on that feedback... but again, you're not a playtester, you don't know how its done, so your judgements are based off of pure speculation and ignorance.
Last point and then i'm out of this conversation, the competitive scene makes up a surprisingly small portion of the NS2 community, its around 10 - 15% total... and a lot of that community is very passive about the changes, its a small, highly vocal minority that are totally against those changes and kick up a huge fuss about them... is UWE/PDT supposed to listen to such a small group of people claiming its breaking balance when they have statistics stating otherwise? even when those statistics are filtered to only include 12 - 24 player servers, official maps only and a minimum skill level?
"they could have done it when it wasn't the end of a comp season"... well, actually, they can't... they were given another 3 month period, so delaying these updates to appease YOU is not an option. they need to make changes, they need to make them fast and they need time to balance and tweak those changes once they are out there.
In short, get your head out of your arse, you self involved, overly entitled child.
i think evisu is speaking for all of us here who are not kash or depara.
No, Kash, I don't think the competitive scene only makes up for 10% of the ns2 player base. Actually, when you look at the steam charts, you see there are about 200 to 300 players playing ns2 ON AVERAGE. The comp scene makes up for AT LEAST 30% of all that, because comp players usually play the game more often and there are like 150 people in this season. Last 30 days peak was 600 players, yea, but how many of those played the game once and then quit? Hard to tell, but for that we got the average player count right??? So no, you're just wrong in saying the comp scene is too small for the devs to be important. Actually they should be worried about what happened this last patch, because I'm pretty sure about 50 of those higher level comp players are going to quit ns2 now. Making competitive play less interesting all in all. Maybe killing the comp scene completely? Who knows.
No, that's not what you just said above. And yea, your insults just don't make sense bro, how about you say something based on the persons actual character? That usually hurts so much more than randomly picked words. In Alites case you could for example make fun of his greasy hair. Just saying..
ALSO, KASH FOR ADMIN TO ENSURE EVERYONE PLAYS ON THE BETA BRANCH LETS GO
Well, this is exactly the problem he is referring to. You have a trello board with all the future updates and enhancements, but if you don't prioritise these inputs well, then you end up adding unnecessary things to the game. I'm not saying that they don't prioritise - just clarifying what Kash might have misunderstood.
As for the following:
I'm just guessing, but I would say that from your very defensive reply, that you're a playtester or has been?
He didn't really mention the playtesters as a whole, but he referred to the devs implementing stuff solely based on their internal testing.
And if the playtester only report bugs and such, what use are they? Does the new implementations even get testet sufficiently.
My guess is that they are not since the whole comp scene can't play since the update... HOW CAN YOU EVEN DEFEND THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE OF THESE UPDATES, WHEN THEY BLOCK OUT (and lets meet in the middle and say 20% of the playerbase) 20% OF THEIR PLAYERBASE!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Imagine this happening in CS:GO - do you think the comp scene would just say; "Oh, but what can they do? We should just download a different version from the rest and play on that everytime we have a match or tournament"
Like wtf... Kash and depara, this is serious question! Are you guys getting paid to spread propaganda and saying the the UWE and PDT are doing a wonderful job? You sound like wyscrack (or w/e his name is) on the NS2 forums.
And do you know the worst thing about this; we gonna have the same f**king problem in like 2 months or 3, but because the vision from UWE is to kill the comp scene, so they can keep developing this game in the shitty direction they think is the right one. We can't stop them. So give it a fucking rest and start hating them like the rest of us. (NOT speaking on the behalf of every member in the ENSL).
Someday you will have to realize that the new dev team has one and only one target : retention of NEW players. If hurting the comp scene is a collateral it doesn't matter. They aren't trying to grow the game with the current veterans (comp or public) since in their mind this is what they tried by not doing anything for 2 years. Even if their vision is wrong they will push it to the limit because as they said "it's [their] last chance"
It was either
- Letting the 400-500 average players having fun on a old game
- Trying to bring new players with new general features like server browser/matchmaking/captain mod/optimization (CDT jobs for them aka work with the community, even if the new menu never came out :( )
- Trying to bring new player with balance and gameplay changes (new dev team job aka don't work with the current communities)
ENSL adapts or dies but i don't think you can expect anything from uwe right now. Especially when it's the second incident of this nature in a few months
Although i don't know who in the last 8 months hurt the comp scene more, uwe or the "it's cool to be toxic" trend in ensl.
Yeah, I'm part of the maptesting and playtesting teams.
Due to UWE forcing the rapid iteration patch system, playtesting is limited in time and what we can/can't do... but as UWE said at the beginning, NS2 is now essentially a testing ground, if things are seriously disliked they will be rethought or removed (atmospheric lighting is a good example of that), but if people just need to get used to it and it plays okay (medpacks anyone?) then it will stay.
What use are we? well, if you take away the fact that we shoot down many, MANY huge bugs and issues with additions before they go live, and if you take away the feedback that stops things totally imbalancing the game (worse than what most people see), and you take away the time and effort people voluntarily put in to do these things... well then yeah, after all of that, we do nothing... just like the rest of you.
I can't speak for depara here, but no, i'm not being paid to say shit, these are my points of view... I'm aware that they may not be the popular opinion in the comp scene.
tbh, the catalyst in this isn't just the actions of UWE or the PDT... the fact that the comp scene has gotten further and further from the game UWE intended via the use of mods caused a lot of the problems (not that i'm not greatful for the time and effort put in by the modders, to me they are amazing people)... the PDT have tried to make it as easy as possible, but they have to do so while also adhering to the requirements set by UWE... the beta branch takes seconds to activate, but so few people here are willing to utilize it. is it ideal? NO, but its what we have.
I love playing comp, but it seems like the comp scene is trapped inside a bubble where people don't realize how far away from the original intention of the game it has gone... we are as detached from the pub scene as wooza is, we use mods to be able to play the way we want, we have dedicated servers to adhere to the style of play we like etc, the same as wooza... and just like wooza, anyone who plays in a different way is sneered at and isn't enjoying the game "properly"... I'm one of the few people that can enjoy all styles of play, I play comp, pub and occasionally on wooza servers. (wooza btw has more than double the player count of comp with ease, and the devs still don't bow to their demands either)
Do I love everything that the PDT have done? no, of course not... does it effect me with the way I can play NS2? yes... does it piss me off? occasionally... but I can see their end goal, and unlike most I'm happy to sacrifice a few small things to end up with a much better product. (and yes, that does mean i'm happy to sack competitive... especially the vocal minority that do nothing but bitch, moan and BM)
Just keep in mind that the "small" sacrifice is the actual player base, competitive players + wooza players.
Problem is if that fails you can be sure that uwe (or you) won't take any resbonsabilities. As they are already blaming it on people not wanting to adapt after 2 years of stability. We understand what they want to do but please be honest. Seeing people already doing damage control by blaming the players is annoying.
@tinki I see where you're coming from, and its a legitimate concern. but the fact remains that the PDT are doing as they are told... because thats what you do when your employer tells you to do something... but in the mean time, they managed to set up a solution so that the competitive community could continue to play mostly unaffected while the PDT continued the "rapid iteration" patches.
That solution has been thrown in their face... the beta branch, should, can and will work...
As for Wooza, some things have been done to help that community, other things unfortunately have made his job more difficult.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
Yeah I know bud, but there is plenty of work going into adding parts of compmod and NS2+ into the vanilla game, so reliance on a mod for comp play should be reduced over time... the beta branch is a temporary solution. people are just unwilling to try it.
but meh, by the sounds of it, its not going to be a problem for much longer, all the people abandoning ship...
