Player suspenion: tominator` / lump

Hello,

Unfortunately I've had to ban lump for being annoying and wasting admins' time. I was already considering banning him yesterday but as he showed no regret and instead of kept nagging about the issue and finally attacking my personally, I've decided to take action.

So to help you understand the ban and that we do this to keep ourselves mentally sane and ENSL games just, I will give you the background of all this:
  1. Yesterday Vital and Rawr were their playing Semi-Final

  2. Lump played with a warping fade one alien round

  3. Vital didn't want lump to warp fade again. Warping is not allowed by rules:
    If player gets high ping or warps continiously, referee will request the player to leave. In case there is no referee, demos will be inspected after the game and a forfeit loss may be given.

    That rule has been there since the beginning of the league, and modified by me some season ago as a part of bigger update, which was annoucned in the news.

  4. I decided to use admin's right to exception (1.3) and let lump play but not allow him fade or lerk.

  5. Then instead of accepting the decision, and the fact that when we have rules we actually follow them and its not a debate, rawr, especially lump started to:
    - Whine about it for 20mins
    - Played in the lucid alien round and complain when he had 50 res
    => He could have taken a task, in which he was unlikely to end up with 50 res
    => Rawr could have used other member or use a merc that the other team can accept.

  6. Today starting this whole debate again and finally attacked me personally on private when I warned that I'm not interested in this whine anymore


If a player or even whole team cannot play because they warp, its too bad, take care of your connection problems or face the consequences. We cannot let people use connection problems (which can be faked easily) to gain reschedules or anything other benefit. If rule enforcements break your strat, its too bad. If we took "vital roles" into consideration when enforcing rules, people could easily avoid rule enforcements.

The length of his suspension will be decided later on but currently its indefinite. This is still up to admin discussion, and most likely he won't be able to play atleast one or more of the next cups we are planning to arrange.

If you feel some rule is stupid or otherwise unacceptable, use the feedback forum to request a rule change with reason. That is the correct way to address problems, not starting to debate in semi-finals about rules that everyone who participated in the league agreed to when they joined it.

Yours,
ENSL Staff
jiriki on 16 June 08 15:03

Comments

562

Fi Sharpi

THIS
IS
GREAT NEWS!!!

16 June 2008, 15:12

Noavatar

Sa frost

You forget to add, the team requested a replay, which was refused, and did get a merc, who was also refused.
I also saw some chat about forfeit, but they were told they could not. And they (rawr) looked like they didn't want to play lucid at all, essentially forfeiting that map anyway by they way they played, or didn't play as the case was.

From an outside perspective, this was handled badly by all parties. Not only lump and his team.

16 June 2008, 15:21

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Not allowing to reschedule may not sound fun but its not against rules anyway. Besides, this was delaying the finals, whole season and all that crap. Rawr themselves took a forfeit last week when vital was not showing up, so after lump's behaviour etc. I don't blame them.

The merc was Macpersil, who in my opinion atleast is a lot better than lump (having played both for sprogga and flatline with great performance) so I don't blame vital for not accepting him either - mercs are not allowed by default.

16 June 2008, 15:29

Noavatar

Sa frost

It wasn't you who refused the replay, you said that it was ok as long as it was played before the final was scheduled for.

I don't mean to turn blame, hardly like that, I don't hold either team in higher regards. I was just watching the game, and it was more than a little irritating just watching an argument for 20+ minutes.

16 June 2008, 15:33

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

We take forfeit win from last week kthx, see TTS in the final sometime soon :)

16 June 2008, 15:43

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

SINCE LIKE YOU JUST SAID JIRIKI

"Rawr themselves took a forfeit last week when vital was not showing up"

WHICH MEANS WE ARE IN THE FINAL

16 June 2008, 15:46

815

Uk ZiGGY

most laughably unprofessional adminning ever.

16 June 2008, 15:47

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Sublime, if you replay it, it doesn't mean you can break rules and get away with it by reclaiming the old forfeit.

16 June 2008, 15:52

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Sorry? What does that even mean Jiriki?

We did not break the rules since during the original game we claimed the forfeit, therefore this subsequent game has no bearing my argument.

Also, where did lump break the rules? We played the lucid round and in your own words he did not lerk or fade. So where exactly is the rule breach?

16 June 2008, 15:55

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Sublime, if you replay it, it doesn't mean you can break rules and get away with it by reclaiming the old forfeit.

Ziggy, yea sure, I'm sure you would love to admin a league where rules wouldn't be there to be followed. I can tell by experience what happens when you have clear rules and you don't follow them. Its so easy to whine when you are not on the receiving end of unfollowed rules.

16 June 2008, 15:55

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Sublime, so you are suggesting teams could first claim a forfeit in semis, then replay it and if they lose the game (or even break rules), just claim the old forfeit, nice idea. Make a new league with that rule and see how long it lasts.

16 June 2008, 15:57

Noavatar

Be dAn00b

I didn't see the match, so I can't really defend tom. I do however want to know how long he is banned?

Also from what I gather, we didn't get any chance whatsoever to play a replay where last week, when vital suddenly had 1 player less could just reschedule? If I remember correctly we asked BB to get a merc(any merc). We also didn't want to delay the date of the final, that's why we we're considering the default win, which we didn't because it would show no sportsmanship nor any respect to vital.

Sounds a bit fishy to me, maybe even favoritism of admins. Anyways congrats Vital

16 June 2008, 15:59

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

No, last sunday I distinctly remember us telling big banana that we take the forfeit.

Also, we did not break the rules in the second game. Lump did not lerk or fade after the admin had told him not to, therefore he did not break the rules.

16 June 2008, 16:00

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Its not really favoritism that we follow rules.

16 June 2008, 16:01

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Tell me where we broke the rules.

16 June 2008, 16:04

Noavatar

Eu Jamesbond007

OLOLOLOLOL EPIC FAIL TOM, YOU JUST GOT BANNED FOR BEING BAD @ NS HAHAHAHA

8DOM8

16 June 2008, 16:05

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Shut up 8DOM8 doesn't make any sense, not even phonetically.

Jiriki I'm waiting; talk to me on steam friends if you want.

16 June 2008, 16:07

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Correct me if I'm wrong but we agreed to play the replay when we had our team together however da noob, berglund and I were unable to play.

16 June 2008, 16:08

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Jiriki is ignoring me on steam friends.

I find this wholly unacceptable; I am unable to ascertain where we broke the rules, we did not have our first team and we originally claimed a forfeit.

Yet we are being forced to forfeit ourselves for what appears to be no reason.

16 June 2008, 16:10

176

Fi jiriki | old people

You (as in rawr) didn't break the rules, you lost the game. Don't tell me you can claim forfeit after losing a game, please.

16 June 2008, 16:10

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

We lost the game because we did not have our first team which is effectively a forfeit due to the terms of our agreement with vital. The terms were that we would replay the match once both teams had their favoured line-up. This did not occur and therefore our agreement has been breached.

16 June 2008, 16:13

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Guess why you are being ignored on steamfriends? I'm not interested in hour long debates after someone being banned for not accepting a clear rule enforcement but instead whining and wasting everyone's time.

16 June 2008, 16:14

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Also your rule application shows double standards.

"If player gets high ping or warps continiously, referee will request the player to leave."

Lump agreed to leave, we agreed to take a merc. However vital found both of these choices to be disagreeable, therefore the outcome should be a full replay.

16 June 2008, 16:15

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

This is not a clear rule enforcement Jiriki. Accept you are wrong about something.

16 June 2008, 16:15

Noavatar

Be dAn00b

By frost, on 16/06/2008 @ 18:21 - Posts: 69
You forget to add, the team requested a replay, which was refused, and did get a merc, who was also refused.
I also saw some chat about forfeit, but they were told they could not. And they (rawr) looked like they didn't want to play lucid at all, essentially forfeiting that map anyway by they way they played, or didn't play as the case was.

I did say I'm not defending Tom since I don't know what happened. I just see favoritism by admins in what Frost said. In particular about the last 'rule', which probably isn't one.

9.4 Fair Play

We want to encourage fair play and good sportsmanship. There are some unwritten rules and no-one should try their luck exploiting things just because rules mention nothing specifically about such.

Even if mp was 'too high skilled' as a merc, I don't see TTS complaining about NS-F getting a merc. (I haven't seen TTS complain ever btw :p)

I just wanted to point this out. For the rest I can't nor won't say that Vital didn't deserve to win.

16 June 2008, 16:18

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

What should have happened is, lump should have been forced to leave and our merc should have been allowed in.

Macpersil is nowhere near above our level - berglund, ziggy, lump and I have all played in the first division.

So vital would not accept our correct application of the rule, rather they forced us to use a player which could not use all the permutations of the game.

This is clearly not how the rule should play out and you are enforcing it unclearly.

16 June 2008, 16:19

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Vital did not deserve to win because we did not field a full strength team - which was something we were promised.

16 June 2008, 16:20

Noavatar

Be dAn00b

I see that Sublime was talking about the same point as I am. It's not about Tom's ban that we're talking in particular. Just about the whole situation. As an admin I think you should discuss about this, because it's also a part of what an admin does, I think.

16 June 2008, 16:21

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Take your own player, if you don't have one, boo fucking hoo. Mercs are not allowed by default.

Although Sublime, that would be a clever way to avoid rules. I will ask, lets say, Hivefish, to mercfade for us, then opponent wont allow it so I will just bug my connection with downloads or anything and because im warping too much so we need to take Hivefish to merc, ggs.

I don't care what you were promised. Besides you started playing, your previous private agreements don't count.

16 June 2008, 16:21

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

do be honest, i'm not gonna defend anyone, or start anything because i cba with this its dragged to long but jiriki listen.

We had claimed a default, and i personally agreed with bb that we replay "when" and "if" i was feeling up for it and confident that it was our true strength.

There is also nothing to say that it wasn't just a normal pcw that was played.

Also i believe that we are "entitled" to post-pone the game since its in the "fair play" rule that we gave them a postponement for their semi's but we had to play our on the spot with out a few vital players. At this moment you have broken a rule enforced upon us many time. It is not a fair play rule that we we're forced or mentally made to played the game due to sarcastic comment made by you on the night. "It wouldn't be fun if the ensl was drag anymore etc.... "

Also, the warping problem with tom was NOT! let me repeat not sorted before the match , but half way in the match meaning we had no time to prepair or inform other members to stay on and play or replacement to our liking. You didn't tell us before the match and u expect to call a member from the blue to replace someone in mid game? very very poor admining. Preventing arguements is what you do, and you utterly failed.

I still believe that i did say to adz a week ago that we taken <-- please note the word taken, unless i say so overwise i still think we have? and to be honest i don't believe i've spoken to any admin about me refusing to take the default. do you ?

therefore the game was merely a pcw? if i was to be an arse , however you can consider it a official as it looked like one and probably was one, and in all fairness our vital players wasn't playing, and also on lucid we just felt that there was biased views which made us under perform as a team due to arguements.

16 June 2008, 16:21

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

I will not let up about this Jiriki, I am being completely reasonable, I am not labelling you anything which you may or may not be, yet you STILL ignore my concerns.

16 June 2008, 16:22

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Please Jiriki why on earth would we, Englishmen, ask a German (hivefish) or Russian (macpersil) who we mostly despise to play for us. Why would we replace a liked, experienced and above all talismanic part of our team for an eastern european.

You cannot apply laws without first taking into account mitigating circumstances. We set precedents on how we apply rules and this is one of these momentous occasions on which you can be forever emblazoned into NS history and set this law up correctly.

16 June 2008, 16:26

Noavatar

Se tjo

Geeze, how can you let someone play but restrict what they can do in game? that's incredibly retarded.

Either you let him play, or you don't. Not something inbetween.

Laughable.

16 June 2008, 16:26

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

jiriki (NS~F), on 16/06/2008 @ 19:21 - Posts: 171

Besides you started playing, your previous private agreements don't count.

does that mean if we played a game at any point of the week it would be considered the official?

and of course private agreements don't count, hmm doesn't that breach the "fair play rule" the one that admins have enforced so heavily ? doesn't that make the people that went back on the rule suspended ? make ur mind up.

16 June 2008, 16:26

176

Fi jiriki | old people

By playing, losing, and the trying to claim an old forfeit is not reasonable. It doesn't matter how much you call it a "pcw".

16 June 2008, 16:27

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Even tjosan understands one of the multitude of points you are wrong about!

16 June 2008, 16:28

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

tjo point +1 , shouldn't the problem be fixed before the match so we don't get some of this restriction in the middle of the match ?

16 June 2008, 16:29

176

Fi jiriki | old people

tjo: "Geeze, how can you let someone play but restrict what they can do in game? that's incredibly retarded."

So, what's there to lose? If the team doesn't want it, use another player. I thought I was being reasonable by allowing lump to play, but I guess I'm now being blamed for allowing him to paly when he could have just typed exit in console if he wasn't see its worthy.

16 June 2008, 16:29

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Wait a second, are you afraid we can beat you in the final, is this why you're trying to get rid of us?

I move to propose that a separate head admin takes hold of this case and that he or she be able to start the decision making process afresh.

That is of course, as long as ENSL wants to remove conflicts of interest and therefore uphold a strong fair play ruleset.

16 June 2008, 16:30

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

and when we asked for a postponement for our game , it wasn't given ? although final was not played on the same day?

16 June 2008, 16:30

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

The point is Jiriki the rule says that you should have FORCED him to leave.

YOU DID NOT UPHOLD THE RULE CORRECTLY. ADMIT IT AND RIGHT YOUR MISTAKE.

16 June 2008, 16:31

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

its not the fact that you allowed lump to play was reasonable, is that you removed his rights to fade and lerk , HALF WAY through a match. Not before, which caused this whole arguement! easily prevent but didn't.

16 June 2008, 16:32

176

Fi jiriki | old people

tjo: "Geeze, how can you let someone play but restrict what they can do in game? that's incredibly retarded."

So, what's there to lose? If the team doesn't want the ofer, use another player. I thought I was being reasonable by allowing lump to play, but I guess I'm now being blamed for allowing him to play when he could have just typed exit in console if he thought it was useless.

The fact that you start replaying a forfeit, does not give you any leverage over rules. When we let teams make their own rules or use any previous "karma", this goes to shitstorm, believe it or not.

16 June 2008, 16:32

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

jiriki, on 16/06/2008 @ 18:03

Today starting this whole debate again and finally attacked me personally on private when I warned that I'm not interested in this whine anymore

ROFLs that like, someone calling george bush a slag and that person getting nuked for it!

wait the metaphor fits perfectly .. *think about it =P*

16 June 2008, 16:48

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

abuse of admin!

16 June 2008, 16:49

339

Fi vallanhaamu | Anonym Anti Anti A.

need moar bans btw, and make news about them

16 June 2008, 17:00

Noavatar

Zw Manikstor

doesnt matter who won just that i carried!!! =)


Well tbh u guys were our biggest competition ever blah blah blah :/

now sub here is a little secret from peanut

The reason we didnt let Macpersil play was because he told ares he would suicide on mines. DO YOU REALLY WANT THAT?

16 June 2008, 17:02

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

I did not want that, I wanted a fucking replay.

16 June 2008, 17:03

Noavatar

Zw Manikstor

something even funnier, BB Was on the field because he's a horrible comm HAHAHA

16 June 2008, 17:03

339

Fi vallanhaamu | Anonym Anti Anti A.

i killed macpersil's fade with my fade by blowing mines in a gather.

16 June 2008, 17:06

286

Ie qin

what I tell u? :D

16 June 2008, 17:08

339

Fi vallanhaamu | Anonym Anti Anti A.

i will send a lollipop in a letter to the one who posts the 100th comment. GO GO GO

16 June 2008, 17:35

286

Ie qin

It was unsporty not to let MP play, aiming to get a forfeit instead (considering you were allowed to reschedule earlier) or seriously handicap your opponent with some suck-my-cock settings. Then again, I only know what I know..

16 June 2008, 17:36

Noavatar

Eu Jamesbond007

LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH
LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH
LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH
LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH
LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH
LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH
LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH
LUMPPP GOTTT OWNEDDDD, UMMMMM UMMMMM AH AH

16 June 2008, 17:38

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Doctor, you must be one of the ungrateful kids who cry at their dads for not getting free stuff.

How many eLeagues have run? Do you know how fun it is after every fucking decision or ban, all you get is people whining at you and have the nerve to victimise themselves. Its like those guys who throw bottles at police men and call them "nazi polices", and think they can get away with it. Its so easy for you to say because you never have to take care of any shit.

Let me tell, previous head admin quit this job because he didnt want to take care of idiots like you.

16 June 2008, 17:41

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

are you just gonna call anyone who wants to solve a case an idiot? and use the quiting head admin post because of dick heads like you to gain sympathy?

good admins know when they're wrong , "sorry ain't the hardest word to say" =]

16 June 2008, 18:02

176

Fi jiriki | old people

"are you just gonna call anyone who wants to solve a case an idiot? and use the quiting head admin post because of dick heads like you to gain sympathy?"
You don't probably even know the guy I'm talking about.

"ROFLs that like, someone calling george bush a slag and that person getting nuked for it!"
I would have not called you idiot before this comment.

"good admins know when they're wrong , "sorry ain't the hardest word to say" =]"
Sorry for enforcing rules (with little mercy). Sorry my ass.

16 June 2008, 18:21

213

Fi Hammond | coolclan

sublime getting shafted... good!

16 June 2008, 18:22

Noavatar

An tjerge

inb4 b&

16 June 2008, 18:30

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

You didn't enforce any rules...

16 June 2008, 19:41

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

What the hell is this.. WHY did this game get replayed? WE TOOK THE BLOODY FORFEIT WHEN WE PLAYED THE SEMI
ASK ADMIRABLE.
Me Doctor Admirable and BB where chatting after the game and we (me and doctor) did say all the time if they didnt play on that time, we took the forfeit, which Admirable said we could, we did, and where did that decision go? into Admirables fucking forehead lost forever? This is a complete mess, and tbh i dont care, i quit ns because of you shitheads. The point is ^rawR? WAS in the final, we took the forfeit, Admirable knew about it, WHY the fucking hell was a forfeited game replayed? we took a forfeit. Thats it, then they cant come later and try replaying it, we were in the final, end of story,

And YOU Jiriki, stop doing this to yourself, i can come over to finland and end your fucking gay life right away, You dont deserve to LIVE.

16 June 2008, 20:10

18

Gb mu

not read any of this shit but


STOP BANNING PEOPLE UNLESS THEY ARE CAUGHT CHEATING

EVERYTHING ELSE SHOULD BE A SUSPENSION

16 June 2008, 20:17

Noavatar

Za Tweadle

Hi, i'm a third party admin and I think Macpersil is waaaaaay better than anyone in rawr.

16 June 2008, 20:21

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

and you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay shittier then anyone in sprogga, even enig is better.

16 June 2008, 20:23

546

Eu enigmatic | 9L

Says Berglund from bloody rawR -.-

16 June 2008, 20:28

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

haha i knew you would respond that fast enig :D:D

16 June 2008, 20:28

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

Hi, i'm also a third party admin and I think enigmatic AND macpersil are waaaaay better then anyone in rawr.

16 June 2008, 20:30

Noavatar

Za Tweadle

D:

16 June 2008, 20:30

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

"The point is Jiriki the rule says that you should have FORCED him to leave.

YOU DID NOT UPHOLD THE RULE CORRECTLY. ADMIT IT AND RIGHT YOUR MISTAKE."
That's a load of crap. jiriki gave you a choice, if it was a problem YOU should've told him not to play, or he should've had the brains to not play. I totally agree on the ban, from the simple fact that lump needs to learn when it's time to shut the fuck up.

It's a shame about you not getting to play with your best roster, but you can blame Vital for that, not the admins. They've shown in the past (nL vs. sR) that they won't enforce sportsmanship, so you shouldn't expect them to.

16 June 2008, 20:30

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

If it was truly accepted as a forfeit win for you however, you should've gotten it.

16 June 2008, 20:32

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

Forfeits are encouraged to be replayed... hmm flatline fana?

16 June 2008, 20:33

Noavatar

Uk ShEePy

Twatline*

16 June 2008, 20:34

Noavatar

Uk GreeN | cisequaltothree

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

16 June 2008, 20:34

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

well zma, does it really matters now? its not like i care since i finally got away from this shit, thats what it is. its just shit..

16 June 2008, 20:35

Noavatar

Uk ShEePy

dear diary....

16 June 2008, 20:37

Noavatar

Za Tweadle

We encourage sportsmanship, we don't enforce it.

Show me a league that enforces the intangible "sportsmanship" and i'll show you a retarded league with billions arguing over grey areas.

16 June 2008, 20:39

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

wow don't give shitty jokes if you can't handle shitty jokes :D

But seriously my take on this, vital were not being the best of teams to reason with in this matter. HOWEVER jiriki enforced a rule and whining about it is just pathetic... It was done for the best. With rules generally a teams going to lose out in any situation. Atleast in this situation the loss is to the rules and to the book. The ruling was fair.

16 June 2008, 20:39

Noavatar

Eu Jamesbond007

LUMP IMMMMM...


SRRRYYYYY...






TAHT UR SO GHEY!!

HAHAHAHAHAOLOLOLOLOLOLOL U GOT BANNED MOTHER FUCKER

16 June 2008, 20:39

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

well, as I have now talked to dA n00b+, about this game, they did accept to replay the game Instead of taking the forfeit, so they/we/rawr screwed the finalspot up by ourself, the ban is just shit anyway, but Doctor choose to replay instead of forfeit. so lol, why are you guys whining about it, you screwed it up yourself. haha my god

16 June 2008, 20:40

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

"Forfeits are encouraged to be replayed... hmm flatline fana?"

Huh? I've said at least 10 times that we would play flatline at any time both of us had six. It's not our fault that they never do.

16 June 2008, 20:41

Noavatar

Uk ShEePy

berglund no one cares what you think?

16 June 2008, 20:41

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

I never have been talking about the ban zma, just the match, which i thought we had won by forfeit, but my team screwed it up, lol. what a bunch of dickheads in my Former team, gladly

16 June 2008, 20:42

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

Yeah well your face isn't your fault either, but that's still not right.

16 June 2008, 20:42

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

wow sheep, what are you on about?

16 June 2008, 20:42

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

Enforcing sportsmanship wouldn't be a problem if you guys had any authority, but unfortunately you don't, as proven by all the whining after every decision you make. I'm not saying it makes the league bad, it doesn't, but in my opinion it would make it ever so slightly better.

16 June 2008, 20:43

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

Yeah, I'm sorry for the sexy. It isn't my fault, but I do enjoy the attention I get from all the hot ladies!

16 June 2008, 20:44

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

well george, keep it up with your funny jokes, i dont care. this is just showing that you keep banning ppl to be able to post replys :)

16 June 2008, 20:45

Noavatar

Uk ShEePy

Berglund scroll up and read what i posted i don't think you quite understood it....

16 June 2008, 20:46

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

I agree Fana. But in no leagues is sportsmanship enforced. In no competetive game is it enforced. You can be punished for something malicious. But you cannot punish a decision that a team/player has to make which is still in good league with the rules.

16 June 2008, 20:46

Noavatar

Eu Jamesbond007

LUK GUYZ 1M FANA!!!!

"BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA IM A STUPID NORWEG1AN/'@%&"

16 June 2008, 20:48

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

have i wrote what i think? that my team screwed up the finalspot, yes i wrote that

16 June 2008, 20:49

Noavatar

Za Tweadle

Enforcing sportsmanship is retarded because both teams will vehemently argue their points and truly believe they're morally pure. You had this problem, we have this problem. I guarantee you vital would have had something to say if we opted in rawr's favour. In fact, I guarantee you everybody would have something to say if we enforced sportsmanship over the _rules_ because that would be fucking _retarded_.

16 June 2008, 20:49

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

yes because you got banned so I could post replies, not for being a stupid idiot and joining your former clan (who you have close links) with a fakenick of a player no ones heard of (and consequently top fragging), using the same ip, and then lieing to an admin. Yes you're well intelligent. You clearly didn't deserve that ban.

Please go play Hello kitty online, it's more suited to your level of intelligence and offences.

16 June 2008, 20:49

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

haha did i ever mention that?

16 June 2008, 20:52

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

my ban was a clear ban, but lumps ban, and some others is some discussion bans.

16 June 2008, 20:53

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Sl GibbZ | 9L

well george, keep it up with your funny jokes, i dont care. this is just showing that you keep banning ppl to be able to post replys :)
^

SO WHO THEN? You _fucking_ idiot. You address me over lump's ban? I never banned him? That was jiriki? Or are you _that_ retarded.

Glove's ban? Oh shit a temp. gather ban? Ohhh shiittteeee....

16 June 2008, 20:54

Noavatar

Uk GreeN | cisequaltothree

not as discussting as your face

16 June 2008, 20:55

Noavatar

Uk ShEePy

HAHAHAHAHAHA BERGLUND DOWN

16 June 2008, 20:55

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

LUK GUYZ 1M BERGY!!!!

"BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA IM A STUPID SWEDE/'@%&"

16 June 2008, 20:56

Noavatar

Eu Jamesbond007

AHHHHH NOT AZ D1SCUSSST1NG^&*$£/@#}$!" AZ YoUR FACE%£~}{@:#

16 June 2008, 20:57

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Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

i meant Admins overall. i was a bit difuse there aight

16 June 2008, 21:00

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Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

over 100 posts in one day, impressive

16 June 2008, 21:02

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Sl GibbZ | 9L

yes.

16 June 2008, 21:04

Noavatar

Eu Jamesbond007

1MPRESS1VE TAHT UR SO GHEY"%&#@?< OLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOL

16 June 2008, 21:04

546

Eu enigmatic | 9L

not as impressive as the level of ur stupidity

16 June 2008, 21:09

Noavatar

Eu Jamesbond007

SHUT UP GHEYWAD^^*£@#% ENIGGSLAVE"£">?#@*

16 June 2008, 21:16

Noavatar

Ie Admirable | coolclan

Yes, I did give the forfeit last week.
I said that they could replay it if they saw fit, but that they were under no obligation to do so.

However, once you cross that replay line and the game is started you can't just throw your hands in the air and say that it doesn't count when things don't go your way.

At the end of the day RAWR were ill prepared with no subs, and I think Vital were the villains of the piece not poor old jiriki :(

I'm glad we can have these debates though, it's always fun.

16 June 2008, 21:30

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

lol I wasn't even there Fana, I don't have a clue what happened I'm just arguing for the sake of it

16 June 2008, 21:33

546

Eu enigmatic | 9L

In other words ur showing us what a retard u are

16 June 2008, 21:36

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

Diplodocus. How funny. Ah Hah Ah Hah.

16 June 2008, 21:38

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Fuck off if you don't understand whats funny any more, too involved in your little inbred wow communities aren't you.

GO AND DIE IN PUBLIC

16 June 2008, 21:46

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Sl GibbZ | 9L

Good one.

16 June 2008, 21:55

Noavatar

De genZ

what`s the different between a girl taking a bath, and a nun?
a nun has hope in her soul, and the girl has soap in her hole.

16 June 2008, 21:59

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

Fuck, I got trolled by Sublime. This is like 2006 all over again or something!

16 June 2008, 22:07

Noavatar

Uk Starchy | Anonym Anti Anti A.

Replay please!

16 June 2008, 22:10

174

Gb d-

Quick, call for an ambulance.

16 June 2008, 22:15

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

I didn't troll you, you total noncebag?!

16 June 2008, 22:32

Noavatar

Ba Altbst

The failtroll is trying to take his throne back is he?!

16 June 2008, 22:43

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

When fishing boats troll the ocean floor they try to get the fish, but usually they also get lots of random shit, like coral reef bits and crabs. Just because you were trying to hit the fish, doesn't mean you're not responsible for ruining the coral reef. :(

16 June 2008, 22:58

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

YOU'RE A FUCKING MORON, IF YOU'RE NOT IN THE PRIVATE JOKE STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THE CONVERSATION YOU CUNT

16 June 2008, 23:07

878

Dk atman

do not disturb fana's fragile nature please

16 June 2008, 23:09

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

AND ITS TRAWL NOT TROLL FANA


AND FUCK OFF WITH THE FAIL<INSERTWORDHERE> YOU MASSIVE ENORMOUS HUMUNGUS RAVING HOMOSEXUAL

16 June 2008, 23:09

Noavatar

Ba Altbst

Why would you bring Mutli into this, I knew you liked him but not in that way.

Sublime's Diary Page 219 Title: BEEN HIDEING IT FOR A WHILE, NOW IM GOING TO SCREAM IT OFF THE FORUM HILLTOPS.

16 June 2008, 23:35

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Fi Aleksi | FINNSTACK

By GibbZ (sprogga ~), on 16/06/2008 @ 23:56

"
LUK GUYZ 1M BERGY!!!!

"BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA IM A STUPID SWEDE/'@%&"
"

This really shows what a bunch of stupid faggots this community is, i mean sprogga, sorry. What did Mark ever do to claim the title of a Head Admin?

:--------------------D

17 June 2008, 04:59

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Sl GibbZ | 9L

If you read up its a joke fully stated and copied from James. It clearly therefore is serious. :rolleyes:

17 June 2008, 05:33

Noavatar

Fi Aleksi | FINNSTACK

I know, and it bugs me

17 June 2008, 05:43

Noavatar

Ie Admirable | coolclan

Roses are red

17 June 2008, 08:27

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

admirable is blue

17 June 2008, 09:23

Noavatar

Fi Aleksi | FINNSTACK

all of my doctors

17 June 2008, 09:38

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

its a wonder if the scene survive this!

17 June 2008, 09:57

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

are just too cool! <-- following from the poem =]

17 June 2008, 10:23

774

Nl Arj | Ant

Admin team.. it seems clear your way of acting is not lessening the time required to run this show, it increases it.

Banning people for wasting your time will always cost you more time then it will bring you, this is an obvious result.

Banning people permanently will result in people wasting your time even more with whine whenever they can.

This scenario with lump is rediculous. You can't force rules during a round, if you'd like to do that, stop the round. When you choose to force rules, force them, don't go half way. Let lump play, or disallow him to play. Not allowing him to go fade or lerk.. absurd.

Time for a new admin team if you ask me.
Fana, tjo, b1, any sensible guy, please create a new admin team. Make it a bigger team to devide time.

17 June 2008, 10:54

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Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

"Let lump play, or disallow him to play. Not allowing him to go fade or lerk.. absurd."

I agree with that.

17 June 2008, 10:56

286

Ie qin

In the end, we'll all be a big, united and loving family when NS2 is out.

17 June 2008, 11:30

Noavatar

Uk GreeN | cisequaltothree

hahaha these threads bring the community together.. keep them up

17 June 2008, 11:52

176

Fi jiriki | old people

"This scenario with lump is rediculous. You can't force rules during a round, if you'd like to do that, stop the round. When you choose to force rules, force them, don't go half way. Let lump play, or disallow him to play. Not allowing him to go fade or lerk.. absurd."

Yeah, great job Arj, you are again talking about a thing you have no clue about. I enforced the rule between rounds and gave him the option to not play at all (which rules demand) or play with the limitation. He chose to play with the limitation. If they hadn't spare players, its their problem.

I did not enforce it "suddenly during a round", which is total bullshit.

"Banning people for wasting your time will always cost you more time then it will bring you, this is an obvious result."

Well its not up to you. I think I don't even bother commenting to these lies and illogical statements you guys spread here next time to save my time.

"Let lump play, or disallow him to play. Not allowing him to go fade or lerk.. absurd."

Again. It was his choice, I made an exception when the rules would have demanded he was completely unable to play. I don't understand how making their team a favor (giving them a choice to play with the limitation) is somehow absurd.

17 June 2008, 11:57

Noavatar

No Fana | Archaea

Arj is lump's alt.

17 June 2008, 12:48

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

The way i get it is that tom "had" to play coz vital didnt allow mp as merc, and rawr didnt have anyone else.. am i right or wrong?..

17 June 2008, 14:18

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Ie Admirable | coolclan

He had the choice to not play, which would have most probably saw Vital win by forfeit.

So I think it's not unreasonable to he "had" to play due to Vital's refusal to allow Mercpersil.

However, it was the poor preparation of RAWR and the stubbornness of Vital that created this difficult situation, not the ENSL Admins.

17 June 2008, 14:32

815

Uk ZiGGY

I dont think Jiriki trying to wind Tom up in the middle of the Lucid round helped much lol admin talking "well this outcome was predictable etc" ;) (pretty sure there should be rules against that tbh)

As I said alll the way back in post 3, very unprofessional lol; for those of you who werent there Toms warp was BAD, like Pete Rodriguez bad, and he shouldnt have played at all. We lost Lucid deservedly so, the play was poor, not even omg-im-so-great-berg-d-swinehund or pat-attack (gogo gay theme) would have saved it; That is totally besides the point lol, Jiriki youre acting like a 10 year old, dont lecture me on admin skills when youre communicating this poorly.

NOW all stfu and be friends (except 8DOM8 who can try and summon a friend out of his own emo tears)

17 June 2008, 15:13

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

I really am so shocked at this.

Jiriki enforced a rule which was asked, and modified it so that Rawr^ wouldn't have to forfeit. It's all fair. He's sticking to the rules while at the same time modifying them so a team (Rawr) doesn't lose out completely. Yet you whine when an admin A) enforces rules B) adjusts the rule which benefits your team more then the original

- I am sorry to say Rawr^ all of jirikis decisions were in accordance to the rules. He never made one biased or unjust decision.

Sure the fact is maybe it was a little harsh that vital didn't want lump to play. But in truth I was watching and, fucking hell, lump did warp ALOT. I'm not saying it's an advantage or anything, but still, vital raised a point.

Jiriki fixed that point they raised, and instead of just being happy that lump could play, you whine. It's stupid.

In any other game I assure you that lump's ping would have broken several rules and I'm sure the course of action would have been to remove him. <- Even if that's the case ENSL has it's own rules. You cannot complain about RULES after they have been enforced... you can't just agree with them then disagree. It's only because you see it from your view that you think what you think. Just imagine if vital's fade was warping horribly. I KNOW Doctor, that you, would have had a massive whine at that and tried to get it removed.

Stop being massive arrogant pricks and get a grip on the situation.

And moving swiftly on to Arj.
How fucking dumb are you? No seriously, you have to be the most idiotic person to have ever set foot in this league. Your not twisted in the head your just a plain idiot. You genuinely think everytime something crops up you know the WHOLE situation when in reality you just know the minor details, and nothing at that. You have biased views which are based on your own opinion of facts that you know nothing about.

Seriously everytime you comment, what ever it's about, I think to myself, "what the fuck is that douchebag on about?".

Sorry for my language, I can't contain myself against a fuckhead of your calliber. I really can't.

17 June 2008, 15:31

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

I think you need to get a grip of how you're shocked by something that happened in a community that is fast descending into 4chan...

17 June 2008, 15:49

339

Fi vallanhaamu | Anonym Anti Anti A.

I would like to see all the ENSL players and admins in a one room. People would just beat each other around the room. That would be so awesome.

17 June 2008, 16:09

5

Gb sublime | Spastic Colon

Hahah yea we could cull the retards

17 June 2008, 16:12

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

and the skinny geeks of ns that weighs around 50kg would have been killed :D

17 June 2008, 17:10

1590

Hk doctor | Team Four

i think the only arrogant prick is you zma, you and ur arrogant attitudes makes you a bigger prick, can you patronise any more ?
I can't be arsed to deal with people like you, "its okay to use racist comments providing its a joke is it now zma?" from that alone you are bad. And thanks to how admins have handled this situation has made my last season a shit experience.

ps: adz is great =] he can actually actually control a riot without calling people, something u also fail , oh great admin.

final wishes to vital and ns-f in the final. And sorry tweadle i couldn't keep to my promise , i tried and tried but its not worth it.

17 June 2008, 17:48

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Yeah next time, if ever, we handle with rawr, we won't follow rules, that's for sure.

17 June 2008, 18:03

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

great, coz rawr doesnt exist anymore

17 June 2008, 18:05

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Sl GibbZ | 9L

Using a quote thats completely off-topic and the fact is I've never said comments only context. The whole racism thing is something I want to stay clear of because it's hard to generalise between someone being casual (like someone saying "yo niggers") then someone being genuinely racist ("FUCKING NIGGERS"). So yes... I've never endorsed racism?

Your right, in one sense I am a bad admin, I should have stuck to what was right and banned you along with bergy earlier in the season for knowing that bergy was multiclanning. However, like jiriki, I tried to help your clan out by not doing that. Obviously everytime we try and help problems occur.

I never insulted you in the last post actually, so this reply is rather odd. Even so, in everything I have said Doctor it was to defend jiriki because the fact remains your whining over something and escalating it to such a degree. In that sense, I do think your stupid. Sorry if it insults you, it's just I can't see any logic behind your thinking. Whining when an admin enforces the rule and even adjusts it so it's not so detremental... It's just ludacris.

Sure I'm arrogant doctor. Why? Because in this case I know im completely 100% right, and you're wrong.

17 June 2008, 18:10

Noavatar

De gobot | Stray Dogs

ns and this league is dying and you still keep banning people? :X

17 June 2008, 18:24

815

Uk ZiGGY

" By jiriki (NS~F), on 17/06/2008 @ 21:03 - Posts: 188

Yeah next time, if ever, we handle with rawr, we won't follow rules, that's for sure. "

thats a threat right? lol

17 June 2008, 18:35

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

theres no one to threaten :)
the rest did like me, quit :P

17 June 2008, 18:47

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Fi naduli | Exertus

good job with the banning, keep up the good work
(you're killing ns one by one)

17 June 2008, 19:01

Noavatar

Fi naduli | Exertus

Oh I did try to make a joke about your new rule you invented this season and using it, but I forgot it already. :/

17 June 2008, 19:03

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

Quitting a league because one player got banned :rolleyes:

17 June 2008, 19:05

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

well i can only speak for myself, i quit after the semi was played due to rl :) so thats not quite right

17 June 2008, 19:43

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Uk GreeN | cisequaltothree

HAHAHAHAHA badlunD

17 June 2008, 20:12

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Ie Admirable | coolclan

I'll have to break ranks from my admin colleagues and agree with Ziggy that there has been a lack of professionalism in a few of the recent incidents.

Not because of any actual decisions that have been made, but purely because of the tone of some comments that have been made are highly inflammatory.

As admins we are always dealing with disputes and tempers will flare, but if we don't treat players with respect at all times how can we are selves expect to be respected.

Obviously everyone has their breaking point, and some people are not as thick skinned as the Irish, but as admins I think we have a duty to rise above it and bite our tongues.

17 June 2008, 23:41

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Berglund, its not a threat, its basically what you want.

18 June 2008, 01:31

286

Ie qin

Hail to the Irish!

18 June 2008, 04:07

Noavatar

Fi Aleksi | FINNSTACK

sage

18 June 2008, 04:53

774

Nl Arj | Ant

Admirable obviously knows how to act as respectable admin, everybody does respect him.

The incidents that occured are not the biggest problem. They were mostly bad decisions, but still, admins have the right and should try to uphold some kind of standard.

The thing that made it really bad, was the way they reacted to "the public" when offence was taken to "bad" decisions.

Communication should not be this way, in the main topics, hanging people on stage. Ban someone (suspensions only) and explain to him why. Nobody else has to know about it, news will go round. If someone whines in random comments, respond to them to go to the discussion forum.

18 June 2008, 05:54

Noavatar

Uk ShEePy

Guiness for everyone!

18 June 2008, 09:16

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

greeN i love you.
jirki, is it what I want? :O since when did i even get into that threaten stuff except for me saying that theres no rawr anymore

18 June 2008, 11:31

176

Fi jiriki | old people

"The incidents that occured are not the biggest problem. They were mostly bad decisions, but still, admins have the right and should try to uphold some kind of standard."
If you are talking about the warp thing, it was not really a decision, it was rule enforcement and people here like blaming judge for bad laws. What it goes to Mp/lump bans, is that you never had to be an admin arguing with these people on your free time unpaid, so you can only blame us but you never have to face the consequences of your opinions.

Basically Arj, I've banned people in silence in the past but I decided to post news for the simple reason that I want the bans to have cautionary effect. My goal is not whip lump etc. to the death but have it an effect on the behaviour of everyone in the future. Thats why the racism etc. bans are public, so people know we actually monitor the situation. The more people know the better, because then more people know the boundaries and that we are actually punishing people.

Admirable is an respectful admin but he has more charisma and local authority on people than I do, so its easier for him to push decisions. He has also less stuff on his plate which he can if necessary delegate to me. I'm not that sympathetic person when it comes to solving conflicts, so I may not collect all the respect points but I don't really care.

18 June 2008, 11:45

774

Nl Arj | Ant

Solid reply, I can understand why you would act the way you do.

The statement you did not reply to (the reason I posted my comment):
"The thing that made it really bad, was the way they (admins) reacted to "the public" when offence was taken to "bad" decisions."

The statement states the actual problem. People make mistakes, admins make mistakes in communication, but not in every instance. If you choose to communicate openly, be sure the admins with "more charisma and local authority" bring the message.

If the public could ban an admin, some admins would have been banned multiple times, going by your own 'no tolerance' policy.

18 June 2008, 12:14

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

this is like a fairytale, what frog will she kiss?

18 June 2008, 12:21

339

Fi vallanhaamu | Anonym Anti Anti A.

Yeah, start using brutal force! send anthraxletters! use baseball bats! get guns, shoot at random! GOGOGO

18 June 2008, 16:46

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

it sounds like home!

18 June 2008, 19:57

15

Vi frG | TROLLS

Admins are way out of line right now.

Would be better to lock this topic.

18 June 2008, 21:58

176

Fi jiriki | old people

Arj, yeah alright fair point. I will try to get the Ad to do the PR job next time, I must admit I was a bit hot-headed with some of the replies though the argument had already started on the match day.

19 June 2008, 05:12

286

Ie qin

Banned for 1 or more cups? Did smoke and the gang get banned even for the next cup when they fakeclanned or whatever it was about? Is MP still banned for being a dickhead for a lot longer than 2 days? Be reasonable.

19 June 2008, 05:48

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

can we make the 200?!

19 June 2008, 07:17

Noavatar

No Android | Snowrollers

Ye il drop one in... Arj ure a fag u dont play ns get lost pls!

19 June 2008, 13:22

878

Dk atman

what are you on about qin, flatline made us do it! :(

and i think you were in pitchfork back then still so you're going down with us!

19 June 2008, 18:17

774

Nl Arj | Ant

The fact you can admit your flaws makes you a better admin jiriki. You were in fairness not the admin that created the most bad blood. Public apologies would be in order.

20 June 2008, 05:44

286

Ie qin

I go where you go, my sweedy ..

20 June 2008, 06:24

352

Dk beefcake

Hmm..

What happened, happened. I think the point has been proven preaty much about now - even for the most retarded person.

I can follow both views in these case, and I can only say I agree with the decision that the ENSL crew has taken. Eventhough it's sad that this was what happened to Rawr in this case.

But to crawl further down in this hole would be unnecessary and mostly disrespectful against the ENSL's Crews decision.
Only thing you can do after all of this whining is to prey that the ENSL crew would be so kind - to even consider - letting Lump play next season.

Respect the ENSL's crews decision - move on - and prey that they will give a thought about Lump, when next season appears.

This is my opinion about this case. And by this I think I can declare this topic for closed! (Finally)

20 June 2008, 19:27

Noavatar

Vc BerglunD | Snowrollers

why wouldnt lump be able to play next season?...

20 June 2008, 22:42

Noavatar

Ie Admirable | coolclan

Overdose ;D

21 June 2008, 13:34

Noavatar

Eu varro2

jiriki is a nigger

21 June 2008, 14:19

1315

Fi IsoK | Anonym Anti Anti A.

and we hate niggers! especially if they are white!

21 June 2008, 15:30

Noavatar

Sl GibbZ | 9L

"You were in fairness not the admin that created the most bad blood"
:rollseyes:

All the ban decisions so far this season and since I have been an admin, have always been accepted as a team and discussed amongst the staff.

Once again Arj, talking about something you know nothing about.

Please don't get offended by this, I am not trying to be harsh or anything... I think it's (admitting my flaws here) that I just have had enough of all the bullshit you say, always made on false evidence and a view which is always by proxy.
Hmmm...

22 June 2008, 01:40

Noavatar

No Android | Snowrollers

Please zamma i fucking beg you... Ban this pice of shit from the ensl page and il send you 50$ or whatever
*hope u dont have rules against admin bribes* :p

22 June 2008, 03:43

1743

Eu AltFrthz

Arj is still around? I thought they found a cure for cancer..

22 June 2008, 12:41

774

Nl Arj | Ant

Gibbz.. I was referring to your and others bad PR. Jiriki was fair enough to admit it, you clearly are not.

23 June 2008, 05:37

669

Hm macpersil | Team Two

Arj is cool fuck off alty

23 June 2008, 22:58

Noavatar

Dk Johs

"And moving swiftly on to Arj.
How fucking dumb are you? No seriously, you have to be the most idiotic person to have ever set foot in this league. Your not twisted in the head your just a plain idiot. You genuinely think everytime something crops up you know the WHOLE situation when in reality you just know the minor details, and nothing at that. You have biased views which are based on your own opinion of facts that you know nothing about."

Zamma, you have described exactly how every ensl player feel about Arj. Thank you.

7 July 2008, 00:30

774

Nl Arj | Ant

Motivating a head admin to keep it up not taking his position seriously is indeed the way to go...

7 July 2008, 07:20

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